Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 06-10-2010, 11:06 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,797,345 times
Reputation: 2879

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Rafius-what makes you think the men/women who translated that scripture are infallible?
I don't think they are infallible, quite the opposite actually. I gave you a list of Bible versions that say your god creates evil (recently changed to "calamity" in some of the more modern versions). You say that they are wrong and claim that what it actually says is that he "cuts down evil". Can you perhaps give us a list of Bibles that have translated the verse to mean what you say it means?

Quote:
Seems to me by this post you do not beleive the scriptures, yet beleive those who translated the scriptures are infallible.
I neither believe the scriptures or believe the people that translated them to be infallible. I'm atheist and I'm just pointing out what the majority of Bible versions say.

Quote:
All you really have to do is look into the meaning of the word create and you will see what I presented is correct.

The reason the translator never used cut down or cut out to translate create is because they could not understand how God could be said to create by cuting down or cutting out.
So, according to you, the word "create" means to "cut down" or "cut out"?? You are saying that the very first line of the Bible should not say ......

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

.....but it should say....

"In the beginning God cut down the heavens and the earth."

Or perhaps...

"So God cut down the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind."

"So God cut down man in his own image, in the image of God he cut down him; male and female he cut down them."

Doesn't work does it?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-10-2010, 12:41 PM
 
4,049 posts, read 5,017,079 times
Reputation: 1333
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
what makes you think the men/women who translated that scripture are infallible?
Not to speak for Rafius but I would think that if these scriptures were so important for all the people in the world to be able to understand, then an all-powerful God would have made the scriptures and translations infallible.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2010, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,797,345 times
Reputation: 2879
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
Not to speak for Rafius but I would think that if these scriptures were so important for all the people in the world to be able to understand, then an all-powerful God would have made the scriptures and translations infallible.
In a nutshell old chap!! If this omnimax god did exist and the Bible was his way of getting his message to the people then there would be no problems with translations/contradictions etc. The omnimax deity would have no problem ensuring that everyone would understand exactly what it says in their own language. As it is, there appears to be a need for translation, interpretation, metaphor, allegory, secret codes and hidden messages, (not to mention a degree in theology) before it can be understood. All this has resulted in some 3,000 different denominations of Christianity all interpreting it differently.

One would have thought that the omnimax Christian god could have devised a better way to get his "word" across to the plebs than having to rely on mortal men to do the job for him.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2010, 10:03 PM
 
Location: Canada
11,123 posts, read 6,325,881 times
Reputation: 600
Quote:
I don't think they are infallible, quite the opposite actually. I gave you a list of Bible versions that say your god creates evil (recently changed to "calamity" in some of the more modern versions). You say that they are wrong and claim that what it actually says is that he "cuts down evil". Can you perhaps give us a list of Bibles that have translated the verse to mean what you say it means?



No I cannot give you any list of bibles that translate it the way I do as I do not know of any.

The thing is Rafius what make you think the translators ( i don’t care how many there are ) of the scripture are any more correct then I am?

After all, I am not asking you to take my word for it; all I ask is that you look into the meaning of the word create for yourself and draw your own conclusion. If after you do this you come to the conclusion I am wrong and the translators are correct so be it.

Quote:
I neither believe the scriptures or believe the people that translated them to be infallible. I'm atheist and I'm just pointing out what the majority of Bible versions say.


Question: why do you deem yourself an atheist?

Could it be in part because most Christian’s views of God contain the view of a God of both good and evil?

Most Christians after all view that God is going to eternally torment most of mankind in some kind of fiery hell; Thus, making God far more evil in nature then Hitler.

Rafius if this is all you have heard of God, I don’t blame you for considering yourself an atheist, if I had that same view I too would be an atheist.

But atlas I do not view things the way most Christian view things.

I am a believer in the restitution of all things.

God sent His son Jesus Christ into the world for the salvation of the world; and I maintain Jesus Christ will fulfill exactly that; the salvation of the world.

Some will obtain this salvation before death other will obtain it after the judgment of the great white throne, but ALL will eventually obtain salvation.

Jesus simply will not fail to do that which He came to do. And He came for the salvation of the world.

Quote:
All you really have to do is look into the meaning of the word create and you will see what I presented is correct.

The reason the translator never used cut down or cut out to translate create is because they could not understand how God could be said to create by cuting down or cutting out.

Quote:
So, according to you, the word "create" means to "cut down" or "cut out"?? You are saying that the very first line of the Bible should not say ......

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

.....but it should say....

"In the beginning God cut down the heavens and the earth."

Or perhaps...

"So God cut down the great creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind."

"So God cut down man in his own image, in the image of God he cut down him; male and female he cut down them."

Doesn't work does it?


Yes, it does work Rafius if you can understand that cutting down or cutting out means a division of one substance from another.

Thus in the beginning God divided the Heavens and the earth

God divided the creatures of the sea and every living and moving thing with which the water teems, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind."

Rafius in order for God to create man in His own image the old man has to be cut away; if you know the scriptures at all you know what I am speaking of.

If not I am willing to explain further; but I believe by what you have so far written that you do know the scriptures; howbeit, you know them after the same fashion as most Christian today; which is after the view of Israel of old; thus you like most Christian view God as capable of both good and evil.

Rafius I am not taking a shot at you, most Christian view God after this same manor, but this is not the view Jesus gives of the Father.

So again I will repeat Jesus own words

Matthew 7:17-18
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Matthew 12:33
33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.

Even if you do not believe in God Rafius these simple word of Jesus makes it very plain that a good tree CANNOT bring forth evil fruit.

Surely if there is a God Rafius He would be a good tree, and I think, even an atheist would agree with that.

Rafius I have a totally different view of God and the scriptures then most of my brothers and sisters in Christ, and I will not beat you over the head with my views, but if you are in the least interested in my views I am fully willing to expand on them ( this goes as well for any readers of this thread) and if you still see things differently so be it; but you may find my views interesting if nothing else.

And if you do not want to hear what I have to say; then I will only say it was nice speaking with you.

I would say God bless, but as that would mean nothing to an atheist I will only say take care.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2010, 10:10 PM
 
Location: Canada
11,123 posts, read 6,325,881 times
Reputation: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by LogicIsYourFriend View Post
Not to speak for Rafius but I would think that if these scriptures were so important for all the people in the world to be able to understand, then an all-powerful God would have made the scriptures and translations infallible.


Logic God is NOT responsible for what man does.

If you give you children their inheritance are you responsible if they waste it?

So why blame God because man has handled His word decietfully.

After all Jeremiah warned us of the lying pen of the scribes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2010, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Canada
11,123 posts, read 6,325,881 times
Reputation: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
In a nutshell old chap!! If this omnimax god did exist and the Bible was his way of getting his message to the people then there would be no problems with translations/contradictions etc. The omnimax deity would have no problem ensuring that everyone would understand exactly what it says in their own language. As it is, there appears to be a need for translation, interpretation, metaphor, allegory, secret codes and hidden messages, (not to mention a degree in theology) before it can be understood. All this has resulted in some 3,000 different denominations of Christianity all interpreting it differently.

One would have thought that the omnimax Christian god could have devised a better way to get his "word" across to the plebs than having to rely on mortal men to do the job for him.
I think it is 30,000 different denomination not 3,000, but I could be wrong.

And God did devise a better way to get His word across to the plebs then to rely on mortal men; but most of mankind still reject that better way.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-10-2010, 11:53 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,797,345 times
Reputation: 2879
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
No I cannot give you any list of bibles that translate it the way I do as I do not know of any.
Thought not!

Quote:
After all, I am not asking you to take my word for it; all I ask is that you look into the meaning of the word create for yourself and draw your own conclusion.
OK, I've looked into it...

cre·ate (kr-t)tr.v. cre·at·ed, cre·at·ing, cre·ates 1. To cause to exist; bring into being. See Synonyms at found1.
2. To give rise to; produce: That remark created a stir.
3. To invest with an office or title; appoint.
4. To produce through artistic or imaginative effort: create a poem; create a role.

adj. Archaic
create - definition of create by the Free Online Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.



Definition of create (verb)

forms: created; created; creating
to produce; to design; to make; to manufacture

Definition of underestimate,use,appreciate,tantalizing,connote,e xpect,level,sum,create,inform

I have drawn my conclusions and conclude that you are wrong.



Quote:
Question: why do you deem yourself an atheist?
I have no belief in gods.

Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-11-2010, 12:10 AM
 
4,049 posts, read 5,017,079 times
Reputation: 1333
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post

Logic God is NOT responsible for what man does.

If you give you children their inheritance are you responsible if they waste it?

So why blame God because man has handled His word decietfully.

After all Jeremiah warned us of the lying pen of the scribes.
If your definition of "God" is different then it doesn't apply to you, but many people view "God" as an omnipotent creator of everything, meaning everything is exactly the way 'he' wants it. If he's omnipotent and he wanted things differently, he would simply change things. That includes evil.

If you think your god is not the creator of all things (including evil), or you think your god is not capable of eliminating evil, then your beliefs do not apply. But if you do believe in such a god...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-11-2010, 07:08 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,797,345 times
Reputation: 2879
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Yes, it does work Rafius if you can understand that cutting down or cutting out means a division of one substance from another.
Yes, of course it works...providing you are prepared to change, willy-nilly, the accepted meanings of words. I bet if you asked 99% of the people on this planet what the definition of the word "create" is, they will tell you that it means the same as the two dictionary examples that I gave you (as do all the Bible translations). You, for reasons that are plainly clear i.e, you don't want your god to be associated with evil, decide that the word means the exact opposite of the accepted norm, as in divide, destroy, cut down or cut out. Well you might consider this....

"For through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see--such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him."

Perhaps the Bible writers forgot to add....."Oh, apart from the bad things" eh??




Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-11-2010, 09:17 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,797,345 times
Reputation: 2879
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
God is NOT responsible for what man does.
Of course he is!! Was not Frankenstein responsible for the monster? The difference between your god and Frankenstein is that Frankenstein can be excused somewhat because he didn't know that his creation was going to turn out bad. Your god on the other hand DID know that his creation was going to turn out bad, not once but in fact.... TWICE.

He creates them the first time knowing that they would turn out bad then kills off every living thing save 8 people to get rid of the problem that he knew would happen then starts again afresh, knowing full well that EXACTLY the same problem would happen again. Brilliant huh??
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top