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Old 06-17-2010, 05:18 PM
 
284 posts, read 319,493 times
Reputation: 26

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Visvaldis View Post
How about a summary of the thread...
Most posts run around the OP and go off on irrelevant tangents. Some posts are outright bizarre.
Apparently hardly anyone (especially those who claim to be christians) knows what Jesus taught, although he spent 33 years doing it.
Jesus preached to deaf ears. What a waste!
So how can anyone claim to have a personal relationship with Jesus is that person doesn't have a clue what Jesus taught? Sounds absurd. What I suspected, the christians are mask wearing sanctimonious phonies. And they don't think anyone notices their masquerades.
If you want to know what Jesus taught, don't ask a christian. They don't know.
Firstly, Jesus' preaching was not 'a waste', because although it did partly fall on 'deaf ears' in the crowd, some people listening (whom Jesus identified as insiders) did understand the meaning of his parables.

Secondly, people can indeed have personal relationships with other people whom they do not fully understand. There's nothing really absurd or out of the ordinary in this.
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:07 PM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
13,809 posts, read 26,504,325 times
Reputation: 6785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Jeez! What the hell is wrong with you people?? There is nowhere that I have implied that it was in decline or "running out of gas" at the time of Constantine. Where the hell are you getting this from. I'm merely saying that Constantine was the saving of Christianity and had it not been for him, Christianity would have lived and died just as many other religions did. I haven't said that it was in decline or running out of gas at the time Constantine adopted it as the official religion of the Roman Empire...just that it would have, AT SOME TIME died had it not been adopted as the official religion.
And I'm saying that's wrong. The gas part was largely just quoting Toni and I'm happy to dump that element.

Still you're basically doing it again. You are fixating on one sentence rather than dealing with the issue. So again

Tiridates III of Armenia - Converted before Constantine.
Sassanid Church/Assyrian Church - Christian church in Rome's enemy, Persia. They're still there as the Majlis has a seat reserved for Assyrians.
St. Thomas Christians of India - Reportedly left the Roman Empire well before Constantine.
Ezana of Aksum - Converted after the Roman Empire, but possibly for unrelated reasons.

Look them up. I'm saying that based on them Christianity would not have "AT SOME TIME died had it not been adopted as the official religion." (Presumably meaning "of Rome") If you want to dispute that do so, but I'm going to ask again that you respond to the main point I'm saying rather than just one sentence.
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Old 06-17-2010, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
11,446 posts, read 16,159,318 times
Reputation: 6958
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toni Sherente View Post
Firstly, Jesus' preaching was not 'a waste', because although it did partly fall on 'deaf ears' in the crowd, some people listening (whom Jesus identified as insiders) did understand the meaning of his parables.

Secondly, people can indeed have personal relationships with other people whom they do not fully understand. There's nothing really absurd or out of the ordinary in this.
Jesus spoke to insiders? Did they also have secret handshakes too? Maybe an official Jesus ring with a secret compartment? Sounds like a sect or a club for 10 year old boys.
A relationship is then: a friend tells you to meet him at a specific restaurant and you go to the baseball game instead.
Religion is funny. So are the religious.
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:12 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
123 posts, read 131,162 times
Reputation: 30
It's hard to blame the masses when the teachings were so screwed around with.

I think the average follower of Christ got screwed over once they were made to celebrate his death over his teachings.
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:20 PM
 
7,628 posts, read 10,956,552 times
Reputation: 498
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ourself View Post
It's hard to blame the masses when the teachings were so screwed around with.

I think the average follower of Christ got screwed over once they were made to celebrate his death over his teachings.



The Old Testament stated that God was pleased to see Him die. And that was because His death would become an offering for the sin of many.
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:28 PM
 
Location: Ontario, Canada
123 posts, read 131,162 times
Reputation: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Campbell34 View Post
The Old Testament stated that God was pleased to see Him die. And that was because His death would become an offering for the sin of many.
I think you really have to want to see Jesus in the Old Testament to see him there.

I mean, the Torah is the book Jews go by and they don't recognise Jesus within those pages. He just doesn't fit the bill. Otherwise Judaism would have turned into Christianity.
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Old 06-17-2010, 11:32 PM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,821,127 times
Reputation: 2879
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
If you want to dispute that do so, but I'm going to ask again that you respond to the main point I'm saying rather than just one sentence.
Why do you think that 313CE is considered to be the "start of Christendom"?
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Old 06-17-2010, 11:52 PM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
13,809 posts, read 26,504,325 times
Reputation: 6785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rafius View Post
Why do you think that 313CE is considered to be the "start of Christendom"?
Because the word "Christendom" largely refers to a political/cultural unit. Okay I'll try this one more time.

I think this starts with you saying "Had it not been for Constantine, Christianity would have lived and died as the obscure religious sect that it was."

This does not seem to be referring to Christendom as a political/cultural unit but to Christianity as an "obscure religious sect." I have tried to show you why I feel this is incorrect. (And that we've learned a good deal since Gibbon) That Christianity existed in much of the Persian world and was adopted by Armenia before Constantine did so. It was not an "obscure religious sect." You have so far not dealt with, or even acknowledged, what I'm saying. It's possible you just don't trust what I'm trust saying. If so I suggest you look up Armenian history, Assyrian history, or early Christian history for yourself to confirm or deny what I said are facts.

Later you state

Until then (313) Christianity had been an obscure, illegal, 'underground' sect.

Again you are speaking of a religious sect and not the social/political unit of Christendom. And again I can cite Tiridates, Sassanid Church, and St. Thomas Christians to show this is incorrect. I could also show the significance Christianity had in Egypt or Syria by the third century.

I didn't say it was 'dying out' at the time of Constantine Thomas. What I said was that if it had not been for Constantine, Christianity would have come and gone.

Again you are referring to Christianity itself and not the unit of Christendom.

And this continues onward in later posts. So once again.

I do not agree Christianity would have "come and gone" if it weren't for Constantine as there are clear examples of it being significant at times or places before or unrelated to Constantine. For possible examples.

Tiridates III of Armenia - Converted before Constantine.
Sassanid Church/Assyrian Church - Christian church in Rome's enemy, Persia. They're still there as the Majlis has a seat reserved for Assyrians.
St. Thomas Christians of India - Reportedly left the Roman Empire well before Constantine.
Ezana of Aksum - Converted after the Roman Empire, but possibly for unrelated reasons.

Now if you want to change your mind and say you meant Catholicism, my denomination, or that you really meant "Christendom" rather than Christianity then okay. Or you can try to dispute the crux of what I said.
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:08 AM
 
Location: Valencia, Spain
16,155 posts, read 12,821,127 times
Reputation: 2879
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas R. View Post
Tiridates III of Armenia - Converted before Constantine.
12 years??

Quote:
Sassanid Church/Assyrian Church - Christian church in Rome's enemy, Persia. They're still there as the Majlis has a seat reserved for Assyrians.
You'd better read this...especially the part about Christians.Official recognition was not granted to the Christian faith until the fourth century with the accession of King Yezdegerd.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sassani...ch_of_the_East
Quote:
St. Thomas Christians of India - Reportedly left the Roman Empire well before Constantine.
Reportedly??


Look Thomas, I'm not saying that Christianity was unknown anywhere in the world before Constantine ....only that it was not widespread and often considered to be an illegal sect. Constantine was the dude that kick started it to prominence and that is why 313CE is considered by the Catholic Church, to be the start of Christendom. Would it have died out had it not been for Constantine...I think it would. You don't. We shall have to agree to differ on that point.
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:16 AM
 
Location: 30-40°N 90-100°W
13,809 posts, read 26,504,325 times
Reputation: 6785
I guess that's the best we can manage so okay.
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