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I'm still not sure the owner could prove you did anything. I'm imagining this in court.
Owner: The tenants put a show in your honor.
OP: No we didn't. It already had a shower.
Judge: (to owner) How can you prove it?
Owner: I grew up in the house.
Judge: That isn't proof of anything.
Perhaps the owner has photos of the premises before he rented it out - sans the shower? Just a thought .....
Perhaps the owner has photos of the premises before he rented it out - sans the shower? Just a thought .....
Perhaps. But the photos would have to be dated somehow as to prove when they were taken.
I just have a hard time imagining the owner in court arguing about an upgrade the tenant made and saying they wanted it put back to the crappy way it was before.
Perhaps. But the photos would have to be dated somehow as to prove when they were taken.
I just have a hard time imagining the owner in court arguing about an upgrade the tenant made and saying they wanted it put back to the crappy way it was before.
Now days most photos can be date/time stamped.
Maybe the owners didn't want a shower in the home - it's their prerogative - it's their home. You'd be surprised by the claims people bring before the Court.
I'm still not sure the owner could prove you did anything. I'm imagining this in court.
Obviously, the defendant and the plaintiff always have a difference of opinion in the facts of the case -- otherwise they wouldn't be in court. So simply disputing the plaintiff's claim by saying "no I didn't" isn't going to be enough in and of itself. The OP said the management company even said that there was no shower -- in case of a question of credibility, it would be a piece of cake to call someone from the company (or even a prior tenant) in to testify.
Not to mention that lying in court is never a good idea. Willful perjury, even in a minor court, is a felony.
Anyway, this is really going into deep space on a tangent. I am not a lawyer, so OP, take everything you read on the Internet with a grain of salt. And in the future, always get these things in writing, no matter what. Good luck!
Perhaps. But the photos would have to be dated somehow as to prove when they were taken.
I just have a hard time imagining the owner in court arguing about an upgrade the tenant made and saying they wanted it put back to the crappy way it was before.
Wouldn't a property value assessment have an itemized list of the plumbing fixtures in the home? Or an insurance policy perhaps.
Honestly, OP was a fool to undertake such major alterations to a property they don't own, without written permission. I can't honestly imagine any tenant even thinking of renovating. That OP hasn't mentioned how they got permits for all of this makes me think they didn't get permits. And that may be the reason why the owners want the shower removed.
If the owners choose, OP may be able to fight it in court, but it'd probably be cheaper just to pay the cost of removing it.
Wouldn't a property value assessment have an itemized list of the plumbing fixtures in the home? Or an insurance policy perhaps.
Honestly, OP was a fool to undertake such major alterations to a property they don't own, without written permission. I can't honestly imagine any tenant even thinking of renovating. That OP hasn't mentioned how they got permits for all of this makes me think they didn't get permits. And that may be the reason why the owners want the shower removed.
If the owners choose, OP may be able to fight it in court, but it'd probably be cheaper just to pay the cost of removing it.
We don't even know what the owners want. Sounds like OP was just wondering what might happen when the owners find out.
Honestly, OP was a fool to undertake such major alterations to a property they don't own, without written permission. I can't honestly imagine any tenant even thinking of renovating. That OP hasn't mentioned how they got permits for all of this makes me think they didn't get permits. And that may be the reason why the owners want the shower removed.
My building is managed by a local branch of a multi-state property management company. I am on outstanding terms with all of the maintenance and office staff. They will happy bend over backwards to do anything to make their tenants' lives easier. But at the end of the day, I wouldn't so much as repaint my kitchen without written permission signed by both the landlord and myself.
OP, the more I think about it, you should probably ignore all our legal ramblings. Play it by ear. Be upbeat and happy about the renovation and hope for the best. If nothing else, you really don't have much alternative at this point. If the landlord throws a fit, give him or her a few days to calm down, then send a certified letter asking how he wants to proceed. One of three things will happen:
1) The landlord will have a change of heart and want to keep the shower
2) The landlord will demand payment for "repairs" -- but you'll save on court costs & hassles
3) The landlord will ignore your letter and sue anyway, but at least you'll be able to show that you've attempted to fix the situation on your own. Assuming you're in PA, your case will be heard by the Magisterial District Justice (PA's version of other states' small-claims courts). Most MDJs are very friendly towards pro-se litigants and will take everything -- including your attempt to make things right -- into consideration. Can't hurt.
Location: When you take flak it means you are on target
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I remodeled a whole condo that I rented for 3 1/2 years. I didn't ask permission and the owner didn't care. He got his check early each month. I wouldn't even mention the bath. If the owner says anything I'd just say the PM said it was OK. They can't really do anything to you, and why would they? So long as the property is improved and it's not a halfway amateur job.
That said I do not allow any modifications of my properties by tenants. However my apartments are 18 and 21 years old, not 160. LOL I wouldn't know what to do with a 160 year old house other than fire up a bulldozer...
Thank you for all your answers. Let me clarify by saying that all we had to do was run a pipe from the faucet in the bathtub up to a showerhead and change the faucet to a diverter. There was no major structural change. We also put a suitable waterproof surround where there had once been wood. Yes, kind of like putting a shower converter in a clawfoot tub, as someone had said. Maybe I'm naive, but I didn't think to get anything in writing because I've never dealt with a property management company situation. My sister has rented a house for 20 years that she's made tons of improvements to....the owners love it!
To answer another question, the lease has long been up and is on a month to month. I don't owe them anything other than a 30-day notice.
Thank you for all your answers. Let me clarify by saying that all we had to do was run a pipe from the faucet in the bathtub up to a showerhead and change the faucet to a diverter. There was no major structural change. We also put a suitable waterproof surround where there had once been wood.
In that case, I wouldn't be too worried about it. When you said you "can't put it back to the way it was; that's not an option", it gave us the impression that you had made some major renovations.
If that's all you've done, then it sounds like your worst-case scenario is that they hold your deposit.
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