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Agreed, but it's still money out of the LL's pocket (which was stated as now going on years). As a LL I can tell you that I have to pay for bills regarding my rental house on time even if I get paid or not. The tax is still due, mortgage is still due, and repairs are made when those occasions arise. I had a $1200 A/C repair a few months ago, and hey guess what, I had to put it on my CC until I could pay it off. The OP can decide if they would like to pay what they owe and stay (if allowed), or have an eviction/collections judgement on their record. I've cut a few tenants some slack and some did the right thing and paid in full when they could in a reasonable time; others I've evicted when they decided that I was a chump and that they could string me along. This situation is the reason that most LL's don't cut any slack at all to tenants. They've been burned too many times by too many sob stories.
I also agree with you about the LL should have a more clear cut document for repayment if they were going to allow that. That's pretty amateur and just dumb from a professional stand point not to have a signed document spelling everything out. It would have been beneficial to both tenant and LL. Something tells me we're probably not getting the full story from the OP though. I'd be pretty surprised if this is the first that the LL has said anything about the situation. Most rental software keeps track of a lot of that stuff anyway, so I don't know how a LL wouldn't be aware of the problem for so long.
Well first of all, the morality of the situation is between the OP and his/her landlord. I'm advising the OP with the aim of protecting their best interest. It's the landlord's job to protect his best interest.
And the OP wouldn't lose an eviction suit given the facts of the case, and would probably win a civil suit as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrRational
Which, taken at face, is the only saving grace for the OP to have this amicably resolved.
If this got to Court a Judge is just as likely to give the OP the benefit of the doubt
and allow for them to make a repayment plan on top of current rent.
Hopefully their absence here means they are doing the homework needed to get square.
Welcome to the internet.
Not certain about the OP's location, but in most jurisdictions you cannot file civil actions and evictions together, so any decision by a judge would not tie this debt and the current rent together.
You apparently missed where I wrote "I said she's stealing, not that it meets the legal definition of theft". Like you said, words have meaning...so read my words please. I note that you quoted a legal dictionary instead of the Oxford English Dictionary or another English language dictionary.
Here's for your info: "theft" usually does have a legal definition in various criminal codes, just like "burglary" and "fraud" also have legal definitions. But "steal" is generally a colloquial term - so check an English language dictionary. Words that are synonymous in general English language usage are not always synonymous in legal terms.
Here's steal according to Merriam-Webster Dictionary:
* to take in a way that is wrong or illegal
* to take without asking for permission
* to wrongly take and use
OP is stealing, as in taking property and/or services without paying for them. There are several old historical books that cover this, like the Torah, the Mishna, the Bible and the Koran. It's generally considered wrong to steal.
PS: Ironically, the "steal" you quoted in the legal dictionary is pretty close: "for example, you stole an acre of my land." Acre of land, apartment...obviously no one takes an acre of land out of the ground and walks away with it. Still stealing!
Last edited by LOL_Whut; 10-12-2013 at 06:26 PM..
Reason: typo
OP: Please take Bosco55David's advice and make the landlord take you to court over this. Don't move out and cut your losses. Tell the judge you have no obligation to pay the thousands in rent you owe, and that all those $100 checks you wrote with "rent arrears" on the memo line also mean nothing.
Then come back here and post exactly what the judge said and what happened next. We'll all be interested to see your update.
Since you've been doing this to your landlord for years, it will be good for future potential landlords to see a court record of your activities. The current landlord will also have better luck recovering his $2,000 once he gets a judgment and can garnish your paychecks.
No, I read what you wrote, and it was just as ignorant then as it is now. You're basically saying "I know this isn't what the word really means but let me throw this silly little disclaimer in here so I can feel like I'm not wrong".
Sorry, doesn't work on intelligent people. You used a word incorrectly in an emotionally laced tirade and you got called on it. Best to just admit it and move on rather than digging in your heals and looking even worse. Oh, and I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that your yapping about not using the "legal" definition of stealing is absurdly hilarious considering we're talking about what could ultimately turn into a legal issue.
Even by the more loose definitions you posted, you still lose.
- He didn't take the dwelling in a way that was wrong or illegal (he has a lease that he is current on)
- Since he has a lease, he obviously has permission.
Oh, and generally you "steal" land by unlawful possession.
OP: Please take Bosco55David's advice and make the landlord take you to court over this. Don't move out and cut your losses. Tell the judge you have no obligation to pay the thousands in rent you owe, and that all those $100 checks you wrote with "rent arrears" on the memo line also mean nothing.
Then come back here and post exactly what the judge said and what happened next. We'll all be interested to see your update.
Since you've been doing this to your landlord for years, it will be good for future potential landlords to see a court record of your activities. The current landlord will also have better luck recovering his $2,000 once he gets a judgment and can garnish your paychecks.
Before I absolutely obliterate your post (again) I want to clarify one thing: Are you talking about a civil action to recover the debt or an eviction?
For Pete's sake, OP. If you owe the landlord $2,000, take your credit card down to your bank, get a $2,000 cash advance, and pay your landlord. You can then make monthly payments to the credit card company to pay the money back.
Otherwise, you are going to find yourself homeless with an eviction on your record, bad credit, and a bad landlord reference, all of which will make it very difficult for ypu to obtain another rental.
You owe the money, just pay it and get it over with.
Presumptuous to assume the OP has a credit card that can supply a $2000 cash advance.
No, I read what you wrote, and it was just as ignorant then as it is now. You're basically saying "I know this isn't what the word really means but let me throw this silly little disclaimer in here so I can feel like I'm not wrong".
Sorry, doesn't work on intelligent people. You used a word incorrectly in an emotionally laced tirade and you got called on it. Best to just admit it and move on rather than digging in your heals and looking even worse. Oh, and I'd be remiss if I didn't point out that your (1) yapping about not using the "legal" definition of stealing is absurdly hilarious considering we're talking about what (2) could ultimately turn into a legal issue.
Even by the more loose definitions you posted, you still lose.
- He didn't take the dwelling in a way that was wrong or illegal (he has a lease that he is current on)
- Since he has a lease, he obviously has permission.
Oh, and generally you "steal" land by unlawful possession.
I don't think you understand that words exist outside of legal dictionaries. Seriously. The English Language definitions are the definitions - the legal dictionary definitions are the subspecialty definitions. It's you who is reaching.
I was clearly referring to the moral and ethical problem of her stealing the usage of that rental (property and services). Ditto reneging on the agreement to paying the $100 a month every single month, and then still demanding to stay. Stealing is wrong, and OP stole from her landlord to the tune of $2,000 in property usage and his services as a landlord!
Sorry you're having difficulty understanding something so basic to discussions. Lots of people do discuss things in moral and ethical terms, you know. There's nothing wrong or embarrassing about that, and I'm happy to bring a little common sense to this discussion.
[see numbers tagged above]
(2) Whether this situation turns into a court case or not, there are still moral and ethical dimensions. It's also absurd that you think a potential court case prevents any other discussion of the issue.
Yes, I think stealing is wrong. I stand by that too. I never said I was trying to be a lawyer when I wrote what I wrote. You're the one trying to put those words in my mouth.
Finally (1) "yapping"? And you say I'm the one having an "emotionally laced tirade"?
FYI - I'm not embarrassed or ashamed of anything I've written. I'd stand in front of Congress and say it again!
Last edited by LOL_Whut; 10-12-2013 at 08:10 PM..
Reason: added "see numbers", forgot it earlier
Here's another legal ambiguity as far as this situation and eviction is concerned, but has totally different legal ramifications. IF this lease was an extension/addendum of the original lease, it could be considered the same contract. Only if a brand new lease (most likely in the case of changed terms) would it be considered a renewal (could really depend on the state though). We aren't given enough info to know which. I certainly wouldn't be giving the OP advice as such that they have a probability that it will come out in their favor in court. http://www.fromthegrounduplaw.com/?entry=53
My feeling also is if the LL has everything documented really well, the judgement will be for payment of the balance and court costs. I'm also guessing what probably prompted this reaction from the LL is that they were (generously) willing to slowly get paid back $100 a month while it was steadily coming in every month. Then the tenant decided to miss a few months or was varying the amount at a lot lower sum for a few months. This is all hypothetical, but suing for debt / eviction isn't exactly what any landlord typically wants to ever actually have to go through.
I don't think you understand that words exist outside of legal dictionaries. Seriously. The English Language definitions are the definitions - the legal dictionary definitions are the subspecialty definitions. It's you who is reaching.
I was clearly referring to the moral and ethical problem of her stealing the usage of that rental (property and services). Ditto reneging on the agreement to paying the $100 a month every single month, and then still demanding to stay. Stealing is wrong, and OP stole from her landlord to the tune of $2,000 in property usage and his services as a landlord!
Sorry you're having difficulty understanding something so basic to discussions. Lots of people do discuss things in moral and ethical terms, you know. There's nothing wrong or embarrassing about that, and I'm happy to bring a little common sense to this discussion.
[see numbers tagged above]
(2) Whether this situation turns into a court case or not, there are still moral and ethical dimensions. It's also absurd that you think a potential court case prevents any other discussion of the issue.
Yes, I think stealing is wrong. I stand by that too. I never said I was trying to be a lawyer when I wrote what I wrote. You're the one trying to put those words in my mouth.
Finally (1) "yapping"? And you say I'm the one having an "emotionally laced tirade"?
FY - I'm not embarrassed or ashamed of anything I've written. I'd stand in front of Congress and say it again!
My post clearly outlined why even the non-legal definitions of stealing did not fit. You haven't refuted them at all. You've basically just said "yeah...well, but...." and nothing more. You're trying to pound a square peg into a round hole and it's not going anywhere. Furthermore, we're not here to deal with the ethical issues of the debt. The OP has apparently been scared into thinking he's facing an eviction and is seeking guidance on this issue. Lastly...while I'm not sure if it is active in this subforum...I believe that one of the Real Estate forums has a pretty clear rule about dealing with the legal issues and not moral issues. Just food for thought.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOL_Whut
I want her to do exactly what I wrote. Words have meaning, as you said!
Attempting to hide behind vagueness? I'd think a reasonable person would make it clear which legal action is being discussed here. To save us the trouble, I'll outline both scenarios here.
Eviction: First, without knowing where the OP is located, we'll assume that she lives in an area (as the vast majority do) where a 3 day Pay or Quit Notice must be served on her before an eviction can even be brought before the court. For your convenience, here is a template Pay or Quit Notice. As you'll notice, one of the sections that must be filled out is the one that states which rent periods are delinquent.
See problem #1? Think it seems a little odd to list periods in 2011 and 2012 on a document for a 2013 lease? Do you think that might have something to do with why the landlord gave a hand written note rather than the 3 day notice?
Let's assume the landlord would list unpaid rents for 2011 and 2012 on the 2013 document and it goes to court. For your sake, I'll even assume that the OP doesn't file a motion to dismiss and that the judge doesn't grant it (which would likely happen).
Plaintiff: "Your honor, I'm seeking to evict my tenant due to unpaid rent".
Defendant: "Your honor I have paid my rent in accordance with the agreement, which you'll see here runs from XX/YY/2013 to XX/YY/2013. I submit as evidence these copies of cancelled checks/receipts clearly showing the Plaintiff has been paid for every month of the lease thus far".
Judge: "Case dismissed".
I'll also point out that this scenario doesn't include the Defendant filing a motion to be awarded legal fees, lost wages and the like...which the judge would likely grant in the case of such a baseless claim.
Now, if you're talking about a civil action to recover the debt, that one is much less certain. The OP's best bet would be to argue a meeting of the minds. Given the landlord's failure to pursue remedies previously and the time involved, it's quite possible this would work. I'd also advise the OP to file motions with the court to enter pre-trial mediation/arbitration as well, should it ever go that far.
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I note that you quoted a legal dictionary instead of the Oxford English Dictionary or another English language dictionary. 
It's generally considered wrong to steal. 
