Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Kim that dog in the cart COULD be a Seizure Alert dog for all you know! My gf has 2 small mix breeds BOTH with not training tell her when her Sugar levels change! In both these illness dogs CANT be Train the do them its something they are Born with. Katie can tell me 30 mins ahead of time I going to have a Bad dizzy spell. & she Never been wrong! But her telling tells me I should stay home that day Not go out driving my van & cause a wreck. AGAIN these are NOT things Dogs can be train to do! So as long as these dogs are Well behaved in public they should be allowed in public & Also How do you feel they should be TESTED to Prove they are SD? They cant unless you want the owners to be able to Know when they are going to be sick on testing day! O IF the Humans Knew when they were going to be sick then they wouldn't Need a dog to tell them to begin with!!!!
Vests & ID can be purchased over the Internet By ANY one! So what's the point?
Kim that dog in the cart COULD be a Seizure Alert dog for all you know! My gf has 2 small mix breeds BOTH with not training tell her when her Sugar levels change! In both these illness dogs CANT be Train the do them its something they are Born with. Katie can tell me 30 mins ahead of time I going to have a Bad dizzy spell. & she Never been wrong! But her telling tells me I should stay home that day Not go out driving my van & cause a wreck. AGAIN these are NOT things Dogs can be train to do! So as long as these dogs are Well behaved in public they should be allowed in public & Also How do you feel they should be TESTED to Prove they are SD? They cant unless you want the owners to be able to Know when they are going to be sick on testing day! O IF the Humans Knew when they were going to be sick then they wouldn't Need a dog to tell them to begin with!!!!
Vests & ID can be purchased over the Internet By ANY one! So what's the point?
The point is that anyone can call their dog a 'service' dog when it's nothing more than a spoiled pet that can't stay home alone so they drag it every where they go.
What kind of testing do I feel they need?
Let's see....how about we start with basic manners? No barking, no growling, no trying to jump out of the back of the basket.....those are what this 'service' (and I use that term lightly!) dog was doing in the back of the grocery cart. I've seen many service dogs in stores and they don't act like this...ever.
Dont' get me started on buying fake vests on the internet!!
Your patience in repeating this is commendable. If only those who persist in spouting half-truths and half state-specific truths and cease and desist from confusing ADA Service Animals and ESAs would simply read ...
I wish it were that easy. I have to admit this topic is my Achilles Heel. I've researched it, read it over and over and still just don't get it.
We tried calling several local offices to ask for clarification. In each case, we were told no one in the office (HUD, Real Estate Commission, ADA) knew the rules, and we needed to call a different office. We tried again a different day, with the same results. We therefore went on up to regional office, and called offices in Portland, Seattle and Salt Lake City. Again, no one knew the answers (we had basic questions, not anything weird). Finally we gave up and just take any dog or cat that is listed as a service animal, and don't ask questions about it. So far, we haven't had an approvable tenant with a questionable service animal, so haven't had to worry about it. "Questionable" meaning a pet we otherwise wouldn't have approved, like an aggressive breed.
We have had several service animals that were legit. We had a deaf tenant once and an epileptic tenant once, each of whom had a service dog. No issue with either.
I found the following from HUD HUDNo.13-060A (scroll to the bottom and click to read HUDs "new notice") which just came out in 2013.
But I still don't understand it. Right from the very first page it is confusing for landlords as to whether only service animals are covered, or whether assistance animals have to be allowed too. I read it that a landlord has to comply with both FHA and HUD, and allow both (it says residential properties and leasing offices in the section talking about who is covered by both, so to me that means landlords and property managers). An assistance animal can be any species that isn't a threat or likely to cause a lot of damage. Meaning you don't have to allow an alligator or a giraffe, but you do have to allow things like pot bellied pigs, and other small farm animals. In one place it says a landlord can ask for proof (doctor's note, etc) of a need for an emotional assistance animal, or what task a service dog is trained for, but everything else I've ever read says you can't ask anything. Nowhere does it address quantities, that I've found, so if someone had 27 emotional assistance cats, I would have to allow them, and not be allowed to get any pet deposit, from how I read it.
Please, someone tell me where I've gone wrong in my interpretation. I would love to understand this better.
I wish it were that easy. I have to admit this topic is my Achilles Heel. I've researched it, read it over and over and still just don't get it.
We tried calling several local offices to ask for clarification. In each case, we were told no one in the office (HUD, Real Estate Commission, ADA) knew the rules, and we needed to call a different office. We tried again a different day, with the same results. We therefore went on up to regional office, and called offices in Portland, Seattle and Salt Lake City. Again, no one knew the answers (we had basic questions, not anything weird). Finally we gave up and just take any dog or cat that is listed as a service animal, and don't ask questions about it. So far, we haven't had an approvable tenant with a questionable service animal, so haven't had to worry about it. "Questionable" meaning a pet we otherwise wouldn't have approved, like an aggressive breed.
We have had several service animals that were legit. We had a deaf tenant once and an epileptic tenant once, each of whom had a service dog. No issue with either.
I found the following from HUD HUDNo.13-060A (scroll to the bottom and click to read HUDs "new notice") which just came out in 2013.
But I still don't understand it. Right from the very first page it is confusing for landlords as to whether only service animals are covered, or whether assistance animals have to be allowed too. I read it that a landlord has to comply with both FHA and HUD, and allow both (it says residential properties and leasing offices in the section talking about who is covered by both, so to me that means landlords and property managers). An assistance animal can be any species that isn't a threat or likely to cause a lot of damage. Meaning you don't have to allow an alligator or a giraffe, but you do have to allow things like pot bellied pigs, and other small farm animals. In one place it says a landlord can ask for proof (doctor's note, etc) of a need for an emotional assistance animal, or what task a service dog is trained for, but everything else I've ever read says you can't ask anything. Nowhere does it address quantities, that I've found, so if someone had 27 emotional assistance cats, I would have to allow them, and not be allowed to get any pet deposit, from how I read it.
Please, someone tell me where I've gone wrong in my interpretation. I would love to understand this better.
In the new notice, they state that they use the term "assistance animal" to cover all types of service animals; guide dogs, dogs for the deaf, seizure dogs, ESAs, etc. So just consider that to be an all-inclusive term.
Landlords have to comply with regulations from HUD (Housing and Urban Development) and the FHA (Fair Housing Act), which is a separate law. The FHA is more specific to renting to/as a disabled person. HUD covers the whole range of housing law.
A landlord can ask, under FHA, what the dog does, and ask for a doctor's note. What you're thinking of is the ADA (Americans with Disabilities Act), which says that you can't ask for such proofs say, to let a service animal into a store or on a bus. It generally does not apply to landlords, unless you were to try it when a person with a service dog walked into the leasing office, and you didn't like dogs in your leasing office.
From the HUD notice you mentioned (bolding mine):
Quote:
Housing providers may ask individuals who have disabilities that are not readily apparent or known to the provider to submit reliable documentation of a disability and their disability-related need for an assistance animal. If the disability is readily apparent or known but the disability-related need for the assistance animal is not, the housing provider may ask the individual to provide documentation of the disabilityrelated
need for an assistance animal. For example, the housing provider may ask persons who
arc seeking a reasonable accommodation for an assistance animal that provides emotional support to provide documentation from a physician, psychiatrist, social worker, or other mental health professional that the animal provides emotional support that alleviates one or more of the identified symptoms or effects of an existing disability. Such documentation is sufficient if it establishes that an individual has a disability and that the animal in question will provide some type of disability-related assistance or emotional support.
As to excessive numbers of animals, it's pretty unlikely. I've never known of anyone with more than 3 service animals. Most have one. It is not a reasonable accommodation to ask a landlord to allow large numbers of animals, and those animals can be denied. You'd be hard-pressed to find a doctor to certify that you needed 27! LOL
I hope that helps with some of your questions. If I've gotten something wrong, I'm sure someone will come along and correct me.
Kim... The Service Dogs I mentioned CANT be Trained! But IF the Dog does NOT have Basic Manners then Yes the Manager of the store can ask the person to leave.
Please, someone tell me where I've gone wrong in my interpretation. I would love to understand this better.
Here’s a good way to start. There are Three (3) federal laws you will often hear about, Fair Housing Act (FHA), Americans with Disability Act (ADA) and the Rehabilitation Act (Section 504).
The Rehabilitation Act (504) applies more to employers and organizations receiving federal assistance funds such as a service organization, homeless shelter, etc. Overall, it mirrors FHA in housing so don't worry yourself with it as any difference primarily applies to employment issues.
The ADA applies to public access to public areas and establishments. As it applies to a landlord, this would be for your public areas such as parking lots, offices, lobbies, hallways, anything where the public or visitors can go. The ADA can also apply to a tenant while in that public area. You basically follow ADA with all its limits, restrictions and rules in the public areas of your property. The ADA will also apply to any guest visiting a tenant; however that is limited to allowing the animal, not to the need to make any alterations to accommodate that guest in a rental unit.
The FHA applies to the tenant and their tenancy. FHA allows a broader range of animals and a more expanded list of assistive animal’s types that are not recognized under ADA. FHA also allows you to qualify the tenant and their need according to the guidelines. Qualifications are not limited to what ADA restricts and as such, unless it’s obvious as to the need, you can ask for documentation to support the need and accommodation the tenant is requesting. FHA's more liberal definitions and rules (both for the tenant and landlord) apply only to actual tenants of your property not to any guest.
So, you have to separate your rental property into the public access areas and the private tenancy. You also separate the tenant from all others. You can look at it this way; ADA applies on the property but stops at the door to a rental unit. FHA applies to the tenant living in their unit and while on the property. ADA grants a right to the person and their animal, while FHA grants a right to expect the landlord to provide reasonable accommodations to the person and their animal. FHA is not an absolute right and can be qualified by the landlord.
It can be confusing but if you map out the property and tenancies, it’s not that hard to figure out.
Kim... The Service Dogs I mentioned CANT be Trained! But IF the Dog does NOT have Basic Manners then Yes the Manager of the store can ask the person to leave.
No, the service dogs you mentioned CAN be trained......they can be housebroken and trained in basic manners and can be trained to do the 'service' you're talking about. It might not be 'formal' training, but that owner is 'training' that dog to do those things they need.
No, the service dogs you mentioned CAN be trained......they can be housebroken and trained in basic manners and can be trained to do the 'service' you're talking about. It might not be 'formal' training, but that owner is 'training' that dog to do those things they need.
I think she means that you can't train a dog to have the ability to sense an oncoming seizure or low blood sugar, etc.
But, I agree with you that those same dogs CAN be trained to behave. There is no excuse for a service dog not to be trained to behave in public.
I think she means that you can't train a dog to have the ability to sense an oncoming seizure or low blood sugar, etc.
But, I agree with you that those same dogs CAN be trained to behave. There is no excuse for a service dog not to be trained to behave in public.
I dont' think dogs come from the womb knowing this stuff (how to detect seizures, for example) it's something they 'learn'...something their owner is 'training' them without any formal day training sessions...call it the 'school of life' if you will.
I believe pretty much ALL dogs can be trained...there are no bad dogs, just bad owners. Like those who have little dogs and claim they can't housebreak them. You (not you personally) 'can't' train them because you're lazy and wont spend the time and energy actually training the dog. So the dog pees and poops in the house and has other behavioral issues just because he's not housebroken.
Nowhere does it address quantities, that I've found, so if someone had 27 emotional assistance cats, I would have to allow them, and not be allowed to get any pet deposit, from how I read it.
I don't know about emotional assistance, but the government agency that provides service animals to disabled veterans would not allow a service dog for PSTD to be placed in a home that already had dogs. I can't imagine you'd need more than one service animal unless they were all trained for different things. For instance a blind person who had seizures might have two.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
You (not you personally) 'can't' train them because you're lazy and wont spend the time and energy actually training the dog. So the dog pees and poops in the house and has other behavioral issues just because he's not housebroken.
