Apartment move out fiasco (did not provide "written" notice, auto-renewal of lease) what to do!? (tenant, renters)

[igzolt]

Hi everyone, I have a situation that I could use some guidance regarding my move out.

I had a 1-year lease from July 2013-July 2014 for an apartment with PMC in Philadelphia, PA. I ended up moving to Boston in May so I spoke with the leasing office regarding my options to terminate the lease. Terminating the lease ended up costing more so I found someone who I was able to add to my lease as a roommate who made payments to me. I told the landlord that I would add the tenant to my lease and make the payments until the lease expiration.

As the lease end date approached, I coordinated the elevator move out with the leasing office. Come the end of my lease date, I was out. A week or two later I sent an email telling them where to send my security deposit. A few weeks after that I got a reply saying she was not aware that my apartment was vacant and that I was listed as a tenant. I replied I had moved out and it was vacant. She replied that they had no way of knowing that and that 60 days notice was required (I checked the lease and it did say this). At this point I figured I would not get my security deposit and chalked it up to a sunk expense.

Today I received a bill from the landlord for 2 months rent and late fees. I went back and looked at my lease and apparently it did say that 60 days written notice was required to stop the renewal for 1 year.

Later on in the lease it does say I need to send it by certified mail. I have a long history of emails with the Property Manager stating the above. I understand that emailing to reserve the elevator, notifying apartment of vacancy, informing I had moved out all are not the written notice the lease required but it is something? Am I screwed here?

Now the 2 months rent is already more than the security deposit. I was never provided any forms or information about the process to provide notice even in the process. Is it worth hiring an attorney to take a look at the emails and see if there is anything I can do to defend myself? Am I screwed and should I just send written notice now and eat 4 months rent?

I've never had a lease that auto-renewed and had such long notice. This will be a very expensive lesson for me either way.

I am happy to provide more information on the lease or email exchanges if that would be helpful.

Thanks for your help in advance.

Chris

[eevee188]

I would carefully look back through all your emails and look for any statement you made about intending to end the lease. It sounds like in May you must have sent emails saying you were ending the lease, moving out, etc. I would use that to argue that you gave your 60 days notice. (May-July=at least 60 days notice). The requirement to send it through certified mail is unusual, and I bet many of their tenants don't do that. I would send them a nicely written letter, with a copy of the relevant email from May, saying that you gave notice, and by responding to the email they confirmed receipt of it, and that you owe them nothing further. I would offer them the security deposit to let it go.

If they pursue this, I would sue them for return of the security deposit, and act as though they have simply kept your security deposit and the other issue doesn't exist. Of course my lease is over, now why haven't you returned my security deposit or an accounting of what it was used for? I don't think a judge will be too impressed with the fact that they ignored every attempt you made to contact them about moving out. There's no excuse for taking a few weeks to respond.

[Kim in FL]

Originally Posted by igzolt

Hi everyone, I have a situation that I could use some guidance regarding my move out.

I had a 1-year lease from July 2013-July 2014 for an apartment with PMC in Philadelphia, PA. I ended up moving to Boston in May so I spoke with the leasing office regarding my options to terminate the lease. Terminating the lease ended up costing more so I found someone who I was able to add to my lease as a roommate who made payments to me. I told the landlord that I would add the tenant to my lease and make the payments until the lease expiration.

So you added a roommate....you TOLD the landlord or you asked the landlord? Did the landlord give you permission to add this person? Did they fill out the proper paperwork and get approval to move in? How long were they planning on staying, 2 mths or were they planning on taking over your renewed lease?


As the lease end date approached, I coordinated the elevator move out with the leasing office. Come the end of my lease date, I was out. A week or two later I sent an email telling them where to send my security deposit. A few weeks after that I got a reply saying she was not aware that my apartment was vacant and that I was listed as a tenant. I replied I had moved out and it was vacant. She replied that they had no way of knowing that and that 60 days notice was required (I checked the lease and it did say this). At this point I figured I would not get my security deposit and chalked it up to a sunk expense.

Of course you were still listed as a tenant...you were paying the rent and you were on the lease. Again, did they know about this roommate? Here you say the unit is vacant, but you just moved a roommate in???

You 'figured'? You didn't bother to actually talk to anyone? It didn't occur to you that the lease is a legal and binding contract that you signed? My word.


Today I received a bill from the landlord for 2 months rent and late fees. I went back and looked at my lease and apparently it did say that 60 days written notice was required to stop the renewal for 1 year.

Later on in the lease it does say I need to send it by certified mail. I have a long history of emails with the Property Manager stating the above. I understand that emailing to reserve the elevator, notifying apartment of vacancy, informing I had moved out all are not the written notice the lease required but it is something? Am I screwed here?

You left the lease early without doing an early termination, you didn't give proper notice to vacate, and they had no idea you unit was empty (again, what's the deal with the 'roommate'? Just because you reserve the elevator doesn't mean you're moving out...it just means you moving things. Without proper notice you're just redecorating for all they know.

You had a copy a lease for over a year...it's up to YOU to read your lease and follow your lease.

Now the 2 months rent is already more than the security deposit. I was never provided any forms or information about the process to provide notice even in the process. Is it worth hiring an attorney to take a look at the emails and see if there is anything I can do to defend myself? Am I screwed and should I just send written notice now and eat 4 months rent?

Forms?? Why would you need forms? No sense sending the letter now, I suggest you try and work with them...see if they will accept the two months rent and late fees. The security deposit is based on the condition of the unit when you vacate.........what was the condition of the unit when it was finally empty? I'm guessing you didn't clean it because you left someone living there.

I've never had a lease that auto-renewed and had such long notice. This will be a very expensive lesson for me either way.

Again, you signed this lease willingly. No on forced you. You had a chance to read this lease BEFORE you signed it and quite frankly, that's a basic lease that millions of renters hold in their hands.

you can call a lawyer, but I think it would be best if you went to the office and sat down face to face and tried to work this out. You're going to be out some money, so understand that up front. And before you sign another lease, READ IT and if you dont' understand what it says....ASK QUESTIONS

I am happy to provide more information on the lease or email exchanges if that would be helpful.

Thanks for your help in advance.

Chris

I'm sure others will chime in this morning.....good luck to you.

[azurabug]

Originally Posted by eevee188

I would carefully look back through all your emails and look for any statement you made about intending to end the lease. It sounds like in May you must have sent emails saying you were ending the lease, moving out, etc. I would use that to argue that you gave your 60 days notice. (May-July=at least 60 days notice). The requirement to send it through certified mail is unusual, and I bet many of their tenants don't do that. I would send them a nicely written letter, with a copy of the relevant email from May, saying that you gave notice, and by responding to the email they confirmed receipt of it, and that you owe them nothing further. I would offer them the security deposit to let it go.

If they pursue this, I would sue them for return of the security deposit, and act as though they have simply kept your security deposit and the other issue doesn't exist. Of course my lease is over, now why haven't you returned my security deposit or an accounting of what it was used for? I don't think a judge will be too impressed with the fact that they ignored every attempt you made to contact them about moving out. There's no excuse for taking a few weeks to respond.

I agree with this minus the bolded part. I wouldn't offer them squat if you have an email stating your intentions. I'm assuming when you told them you were having a roommate until your lease expired, you informed them you wouldn't be staying past that.

OP, when you say you coordinated the move out elevator, how did you do this? What exactly does coordinating the move out for the elevator entail? Did you turn in the keys to the management? I have a hard time believing they didn't know the unit was empty if you returned the keys.

You also say you notified them by email the place was vacant. I think your ex-LL is trying to pull a fast one on you. Emails are more than enough notice - especially if they've been replied to. I switched properties with my LL and the previous complex took an email as written notice for me to vacate.

[Rabrrita]

Although PA accepts email communications, the tenant first has to overcome any challenge to proper notice as outlined in the lease. One important factor that cannot be ignored, emails or any alternative methods, still requires acknowledgement of the contents of the email. In other words, although they got the email, if they never responded by saying they understood what was in the email, they are not held to it. So, the OP needs to find any and all responses to their emails and see if the responses indicates the PMC understood the person was vacating on such and such a date, under this and that condition.

[igzolt]

Thank you all for your help thus far!

I've included the e-mail exchange below for your reference.

Does this change anything? I certainly think the certified letter with copies of the e-mails makes sense. Asking for the security deposit back probably is a toss up at this point. Maybe I ask for it but am okay not getting it back? Regardless of the outcome, I realize I do need to read the lease terms more closely to avoid something like this happening again.

Me <redacted>
Apr 15

to Christopher
Hey Chris, it has been a while. I am in the process of moving back to Boston and had a few questions about the remainder of my lease at 2040 Market. I recall there being 2 options 1) subletting the remainder of my lease 2) finding a new tenant to sign a new lease effective when I move out and they would sign directly with you guys. Just wanted to get more clarity around option 2) as several people I have spoken to have indicated that is their preferred approach. Would I just shoot and email to you guys and cc them?

Thanks!

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Christopher Girard <redacted>
Apr 15

to Kianna, Sean, me
Hi Chris,

If you'll be moving out early speak with Kianna or Sean. They can discuss the fees and get the apartment on the market for fastest re-rental.

Thanks
Chris


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Kianna Fairfax <redacted>
Apr 18
to me, Sean

HI Chris,
If you are planning to break your lease, there is a $500 lease break fee plus, the cost of re-rental which is prorated of 12 months. You will still be responsible for you rent until your unit is re-rent or your lease tem ends. Your lease specifically states that you cannot sublet your apartment. If you’re planning to break your lease, we will need written noticed. All parties listed on the lease must sign the notice. Please see attachment for the lease break terms letter. Let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks,
Kianna
Property Manager


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Me <redacted>
Apr 20
to Kianna, Sean

What is the cost amount of re-rental as detailed in your last e-mail? Not allowing subletting is definitely news to me. I specifically inquired about this before signing my lease last year and it was the reason I chose 2040 over Riverloft. I was told all I needed to do was notify the management company of the new individual and the person would be added to the my lease under Section 3(l).

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Sean Ernst <redacted>
Apr 21
to me, Kianna

Section 14 of the lease states that you can not transfer the lease to anyone else. Section 3(l) refers to adding an additional person to the lease. However, you would still be on the lease and held responsible for all lease terms.
The cost of re-rental is $250 dived by 12, times how many months you have left on your lease.
Do you have someone in mind that you wanted to take over your lease?

Sean Ernst

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Me <redacted>
Apr 24
to Sean, Kianna

Sean, right. I think we are both saying the same thing. I would add someone to the lease, they would make payments to me, and I would pay PMC my rent. I understand that I am still responsible for the lease payments until the expiration. Once the lease is complete the new person on the lease would just sign a new lease with PMC.
Adding someone and being liable for the remainder of the lease makes a lot more sense than breaking my lease and re-signing with a new person for $500 and a portion of $250.
Yes, I have a few people in mind.

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Kianna Fairfax <redacted>
Apr 24
to me, Sean

Hi Chris,

You may add someone to your lease however, you both would be responsible for the apartment and paying the rent. If you do not wish to stay on the lease, you and the person that will be added on the lease must sign a form stating that you are relinquishing possession of the apartment along with your security deposit. The new person must qualify to take sole possession of the apartment. In other words, you will not be released from the lease if the person does not pass the criminal and credit background checks. The must have enough income (39 times the rent) to qualify also. If you plan to add someone to your lease, they must fill out an application and pay the fifty dollar application fee and sign the roommate addition form. Let me know if you have any other questions.

Thanks,
Kianna

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Kianna Fairfax <redacted>
May 9
to me

Hi Chris,

I have attached the application and roommate addition form that you and Marcus need to sign. If you are planning to be released from the lease, you both will need to sign the roommate release form.
Also, EMS contacted me. We cannot take your name off the utility bills unless you are removed from the lease. We cannot add Marcus to the utilities until he is added to the lease. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks,
Kianna

------

There is a separate chain where Kianna, Marcus and myself get all the roommate paperwork done

Fast forward to when I am closer to moving out...

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Me <redacted>
Jul 23
to Kianna

Hi Kianna, can I reserve the elevator for this Sunday, July 27th 9a-noon for my move-out? Do I need to do anything special for the moving truck?

Thanks!

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Kianna Fairfax <redacted>
Jul 23
to me

HI Chris,

Please make your reservations with the front desk staff.

Thanks,
Kianna

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Me <redacted>
Jul 24
to Kianna

Sure. Can you provide their #? I am currently not in Philly. Thanks!

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Kianna Fairfax <redacted>
Jul 24
to me

267-507-1501

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Kianna Fairfax
Aug 19
to me

Hi Chris,

I apologize for just getting back to you. I was not made aware that you were moving out. I do not have a notice to vacate from you or your roommate. You are still listed as a current tenant. Is your apartment vacant?

Thanks,
Kianna

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Me <redacted>
Aug 19

to Kianna
Yes my apartment is vacant. My lease was through July 31. I coordinated with front desk and you to reserve the elevator for move out. Let me know what else I need to fill out and what the process is from here on out. Thanks.


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Kianna Fairfax
Aug 19
to me

If you did not give management any notice of your intent to vacate, we have no way of knowing. You are required to give 60 days written notice with all parties signatures.

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Me <redacted>
Sep 11 (2 days ago)
to Kianna

Okay. I have been emailing with management trying to set up a move out date for weeks a few months ago and now this correspondence so obviously I was planning to move out at the end of the lease. I am still getting rent due emails today. Please do whatever you need to do on your end to remove me from the system (I have now provided notice to you several times of my plan to move out).

[STT Resident]

Originally Posted by igzolt

Does this change anything?

Not in my opinion.

[Kim in FL]

You still haven't answered my questions in regard to your roommate......and no, this doesn't change anything.

[igzolt]

Kim, answers to your questions below:

So you added a roommate....you TOLD the landlord or you asked the landlord? Did the landlord give you permission to add this person? Did they fill out the proper paperwork and get approval to move in? How long were they planning on staying, 2 mths or were they planning on taking over your renewed lease?

Yes, have signed papers indicating I was adding a roommate to my lease. Roommate had to submit a tenant application form as well. There was much correspondence around this including the deposit of the application fee check which the landlord manually looked into.

Of course you were still listed as a tenant...you were paying the rent and you were on the lease. Again, did they know about this roommate? Here you say the unit is vacant, but you just moved a roommate in???

You 'figured'? You didn't bother to actually talk to anyone? It didn't occur to you that the lease is a legal and binding contract that you signed? My word.

Sorry if I was unclear. I moved to Boston 3 months before my lease ended and was adding a roommate to live and pay rent to me for the 3 months remaining. When I signed the lease I specifically asked if I could sublet for the summer months and the leasing officer said yes. When I began the process, the landlord replied it was only possible if adding them as a roommate so that is why that path was taken.

You left the lease early without doing an early termination, you didn't give proper notice to vacate, and they had no idea you unit was empty (again, what's the deal with the 'roommate'? Just because you reserve the elevator doesn't mean you're moving out...it just means you moving things. Without proper notice you're just redecorating for all they know.

You had a copy a lease for over a year...it's up to YOU to read your lease and follow your lease.

I had told the landlord that I was adding a roommate to live in my apartment until the end of my lease. I mentioned moving out and not renewing several times. I agree I should have done a better job reading the lease.

Forms?? Why would you need forms? No sense sending the letter now, I suggest you try and work with them...see if they will accept the two months rent and late fees. The security deposit is based on the condition of the unit when you vacate.........what was the condition of the unit when it was finally empty? I'm guessing you didn't clean it because you left someone living there.

Fully cleaned. I had the roommate move out a few days before the end of the lease so I could go down and clean it up. The apartment was empty and like new clean when I moved out on July 27.

[STT Resident]

Originally Posted by igzolt

I mentioned moving out and not renewing several times. I agree I should have done a better job reading the lease.

You were the leaseholder. "Mentioning" things doesn't constitute official notice conveyed in the required manner. Hopefully lesson learned and you might also check your state landlord tenant laws (linked in the first "sticky" on this forum) which will probably help clarify procedures.