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Tenant admittedly turned off heat at thermostat. That had to happen before he lost access. And that is his problem.
Doesn't really matter. The broken pipes didn't happen until later and with enough time that a landlord doing due diligence could and should have seen the problem beforehand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by STT Resident
"Not needed"? Guess you don't know much about upstate NY in the winter. The tenant turned the thermostat OFF on February 12 in the middle of the Arctic blast which hit that area throughout the month.
"Buffalo, New York, logged its coldest day in 21 years on Feb. 15. The day's high of 2 degrees – observed at 12:20 a.m. – was the city's coldest since Jan. 19, 1994, as was the daily mean temperature of 4 below zero."
Go read the OP's post again. According to them, it was warm in the house when the keys were turned over and the landlord claims to have seen the thermostat set to 64.
Go read the OP's post again. According to them, it was warm in the house when the keys were turned over and the landlord claims to have seen the thermostat set to 64.
I don't think 'tis I who needs to re-read anything. The LL didn't see "the thermostat set to 64", the landlord saw the temperature was 64.
I don't think 'tis I who needs to re-read anything. The LL didn't see "the thermostat set to 64", the landlord saw the temperature was 64.
This
The OP turned off the thermostat, didn't inform the landlord that he had done so. The landlord looked at the thermostat when walking the property and it was still 64 since it hadn't had time to freeze yet. The landlord had no reason to check to make sure the thermostat wasn't in the "off" position, because no reasonable person would do that in February in Buffalo, especially during an Arctic freeze.
The idea of something "a reasonable person" would or would not do comes up in court a lot, especially in small claims. I think the landlord has a real case here.
There is not going to be a 33 degree temperature difference without the assistance of a functioning HVAC system, so unless you somehow can ponder up a way that the laws of physics were broken here, it stands to reason that the heat was on. Perhaps the OP or his wife thought they turned it down, but the evidence here (as agreed to by both the OP, the landlord and apparently some third parties) is that the house was warm when it was turned over.
That leaves us with two verifiable facts.
1) The HVAC was on when the house was turned over.
2) The pipes burst after the landlord had taken possession of the property.
There is not going to be a 33 degree temperature difference without the assistance of a functioning HVAC system, so unless you somehow can ponder up a way that the laws of physics were broken here, it stands to reason that the heat was on. Perhaps the OP or his wife thought they turned it down, but the evidence here (as agreed to by both the OP, the landlord and apparently some third parties) is that the house was warm when it was turned over.
That leaves us with two verifiable facts.
1) The HVAC was on when the house was turned over.
2) The pipes burst after the landlord had taken possession of the property.
Landlord's problem.
You do realize that your house does not instantly freeze the instant you turn off the HVAC system right, that since a house is insulated it takes some time for it to drop?
There is not going to be a 33 degree temperature difference without the assistance of a functioning HVAC system, so unless you somehow can ponder up a way that the laws of physics were broken here, it stands to reason that the heat was on. Perhaps the OP or his wife thought they turned it down, but the evidence here (as agreed to by both the OP, the landlord and apparently some third parties) is that the house was warm when it was turned over.
That leaves us with two verifiable facts.
1) The HVAC was on when the house was turned over.
2) The pipes burst after the landlord had taken possession of the property.
Landlord's problem.
You appear to be going out of your way to create a dispute where none exists...
From OP...
Quote:
Figuring the landlord would take care of the house, I had turned off the heat before I left to prevent running up a bill when I wasn't living there; I removed the heating bill from my name the next day
The tenant might win. But he might not. And a big risk to proceed. Tenant should give it up.
There is not going to be a 33 degree temperature difference without the assistance of a functioning HVAC system, so unless you somehow can ponder up a way that the laws of physics were broken here, it stands to reason that the heat was on. Perhaps the OP or his wife thought they turned it down, but the evidence here (as agreed to by both the OP, the landlord and apparently some third parties) is that the house was warm when it was turned over.
I live in an older building, drafts come in from the windows and door. I get hot at night when I'm sleeping, so I don't have the heat on at night. Its usually around 70 degrees when I go to bed with the heat off and its still around 63 degrees when I get up in the morning, even when its below freezing outside. There are times when I leave and don't turn the heat back on, and its still about 59-60 degrees when I get home in the evening. So in a 24 hour period, its only a 10 degree drop in temperature. Now if I left it off for much longer, I would think the temperature would begin to drop a lot quicker as the walls, floor, furniture etc. begin to loose heat. I would never leave for more then a 24 hr period without making sure the heat was on.
I live in an older building, drafts come in from the windows and door. I get hot at night when I'm sleeping, so I don't have the heat on at night. Its usually around 70 degrees when I go to bed with the heat off and its still around 63 degrees when I get up in the morning, even when its below freezing outside. There are times when I leave and don't turn the heat back on, and its still about 59-60 degrees when I get home in the evening. So in a 24 hour period, its only a 10 degree drop in temperature. Now if I left it off for much longer, I would think the temperature would begin to drop a lot quicker as the walls, floor, furniture etc. begin to loose heat. I would never leave for more then a 24 hr period without making sure the heat was on.
That is heavily driven by the temperature differential. In Buffalo a below zero temperature is quite possible in mid winter. I would not be surprised to see a 72 degree morning high be below freezing by the next morning...and the temperature in the outer walls will be far worse.
Location: St Thomas, USVI - Seattle, WA - Gulf Coast, TX
811 posts, read 1,147,195 times
Reputation: 2322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bosco55David
What is hard to fathom about it? Taking away the fact that forcing a tenant to keep utilities in their name for a unit they have vacated is downright silly, do you honestly believe the courts are going to essentially hold tenants hostage over it or allow landlords to enrich themselves at the tenant's expense?
I am unaware of any utility company that allows you to have accounts for multiple addresses in their service area unless you actually own the property in question. I know for a fact my municipal water service won't allow it, and our power company was the same way (though they recently changed hands and I'm unaware of their currently policy). I'm sure than given the sheer number of utility companies in America that there are some who will allow it, but it is certainly not the norm.
Bosco, this is a moot point. Utilities, for reasons exactly like this, are set up to be easily transferred from the tenant's name to the landlord/owner's name at any time, without shutting anything off. The tenant has complete control over this by making a simple phone call to the power company, and can even do so retroactively. I have had tenants move out prior to the termination of their lease, but remove the electricity from their name, into mine, on the date of their move-out. I haven't granted any approval or been specifically notified when that happens. I find out when I get the bill. OP could have and should have taken the electricity out of his name, instead of attempting to save money by shutting everything down. Some things are common sense: Don't turn off the heat in Buffalo in winter, don't unplug refrigerators, and, most importantly, communicate in detail to your landlord about the condition of the premises when you leave. That is always key in ensuring you get your deposit back in any situation. Request a walkthrough with your landlord, even. That said, I totally sympathize with you, OP. The situation sucks and your landlord should have gone over the place with a fine-toothed comb when you handed over the keys. Regardless of the grey, legal area on this one, that would have been the right thing for him to do, as well. There were errors on both sides and the loss of the deposit might just be fair play on this one. There may be laws in place in NY about this stuff already, but if I were the landlord, I would make sure that my lease specified instructions for move-out surrounding such things. OP, you might look at the details of your lease to see if any such instructions are given or are implied by referencing state law ("in accordance with NY state law... blah blah blah"). My leases do this in several places.
Best of luck with the whole thing!
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