Who is breaking the lease? (landlord, real estate, clause, lawyer)
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It does not say he can't post a sign or do showings until 30 days before the end of the lease.
It simply says he CAN do so 30 days before the end of the lease. Those are not the same thing.
If he can post a sign or do a showing at any time he wants, what is the purpose of having a specific clause in the lease indicating that he can put up a sign and do showings 30 days before the end of the lease without informing us then? If he can put signs up and do showings at any time he could put up For Rent signs or For Sale signs the day after we or any tenant signed the lease and start showing the house immediately. There would be absolutely no need to spell out 30 days or any number of days in the lease.
Again, he can sell the house any time he wants; I don't have any argument with that. But, the landlord agreed to the "30 days before end of lease" clause in the contract when he signed as did we. It means that there will be no signs posted or showings done before the final 30 days. It does not mean he can't put up signs or do showings prior to the 30 day period; it means if he wants to do them before the 30 days specified he has to inform us in writing ahead of time and get us to agree to a change to the number of days as specified in the lease. If not, he has violated the terms of the lease. And, our landlord did not ask us or get it in writing that we were OK with the change. If we had been informed we would have asked to go to a month-to-month lease as soon as the house was listed over eight months before the end of the lease.
Our first letter to our landlord simply informed him that we were giving 30 days notice and would be out of the house on November 30. We told him we would do everything we could to help him find a new renter before we moved, and that we would cooperate with all showings for the house during that time. We have not heard back from him.
If we don't hear from him by the middle to end of next week, we will contact him again to find out if he plans to re-rent the house or something else. We will inform him then of the 30-day clause in the lease that he agreed to as did we, and that by not informing us and putting the change in writing and having all of us agree to it, that he initially violated the terms of the lease, not us. We only rediscovered the clause a couple of days ago when we went to look for a penalty clause or any terms about giving notice (there are none).
NO ONE here waits until the last month of their lease to start looking for a new home if they need or want to move. To wait that long means a better than 50% chance you and your family will end up homeless, maybe for several months until you can find another rental. Good landlords on the island know this; if a tenant finds a new place they let them go and quickly get a new renter in. Post an ad on Craigslist for a decent place at a decent price and you will be overwhelmed with inquiries and applicants, even if the house is currently for sale. I'm not exaggerating when I say if our landlord placed an ad on Monday he would have a new, good tenant with a signed lease lined up before Friday, even if it's just month-to-month and the lease specifies showings. The rental market is that crazy here.
And, although this has nothing to do with our lease or the issue above, the landlord has a major legal issue attached to the property, a proverbial elephant in the middle of the room. We have said nothing about it and don't plan to, and will not put it into writing or threaten, but if I were him I wouldn't be doing anything to tick off my tenants, ever.
Well, it sounds like you're solidifying your argument. I find these legal discussions interesting.
If I was your landlord's lawyer, I think I'd argue that you waived your rights regarding the showings and the signs, by allowing them to happen repeatedly. And then you didn't bring it up until after you'd given 30 days notice, which includes in writing, that you agree to continued showings.
You don't need to put all agreements in writing. Your behavior can indicate a waiver of a right - unless the contract says specifically that a waiver must be put in writing. And yours does not.
At any rate, you sound ready to take the LL on, and hopefully he'll want to avoid going to court and settle with you. Good luck.
Our landlord can only pursue the case in small claims court here, and the maximum judgement he can receive is $5000. Even if he chooses that route and wins the judgement, the court doesn't do collections - he still will have to hire a collection agency. Landlords here are recommended to re-rent their property as soon as possible and move on, that even a winning judgement for less than the rent owed is a huge hassle and not a smart financial move.
And again, there's that big legal issue elephant sitting in the middle of the room, waiting patiently for our landlord to screw up. If he decides to go after us in court, we may just make him think we'll report that elephant. He'd lose a heck of a lot more than a few month's rent if that happens.
P.S. The landlord has listed the house for rent, just a few minutes after I wrote this. Same rent, but month-to-month lease. He'll have a new tenant lined up by Friday, and no loss of income.
Last edited by ChezAloha; 11-02-2015 at 04:53 PM..
Our landlord can only pursue the case in small claims court here, and the maximum judgement he can receive is $5000. Even if he chooses that route and wins the judgement, the court doesn't do collections - he still will have to hire a collection agency. Landlords here are recommended to re-rent their property as soon as possible and move on, that even a winning judgement for less than the rent owed is a huge hassle and not a smart financial move.
And again, there's that big legal issue elephant sitting in the middle of the room, waiting patiently for our landlord to screw up. If he decides to go after us in court, we may just make him think we'll report that elephant. He'd lose a heck of a lot more than a few month's rent if that happens.
Hey, you don't need to convince me. Have fun with the elephant.
We signed a second one-year lease at the end of last May for the house we are renting. Less than 90 days after we signed the lease though, the owner called to let us know he was going to sell the house (he wanted to give us first chance to buy, but we're not interested). Because the rental market is so tight where we live (Kaua'i) we decided that rather than wait until the last minute and risk not being able to find another home, we would begin looking sooner rather than later. Also, we were uncomfortable with having to possibly deal with a new, unknown landlord with no control over when that might happen. The house is livable but does need some maintenance (which are NOT issues caused by us). This past week we found a new house, signed a lease, and gave our current landlord 30 days notice, stating that we would be out of the house by November 30. Our rent for November has been paid.
Our landlord immediately called and started threatening us, that we would owe him rent every month remaining on the lease and he would take us to court. However, we know that he is required by Hawaii law to try and re-rent the house as soon as possible, and not just sit around waiting until the lease runs out. We have offered to help him out as much as possible to find a new tenant in the next month, by showing the house for him, and taking calls (when we found the house, it was the then-current tenant and not the landlord that showed us the house; we only met him when we went to sign the lease). We are suspicious though that he actually wants to get into the house to do the maintenance in order to make the house more attractive to buyers (i.e. paint, repair screens, etc.) and will not be in any hurry to find another tenant. This is maintenance that was not done before we took possession even though he had adequate time then.
Here is where we wonder though about breaking the lease: The only mention in our lease that has anything to do with selling the house states: During the last 30 days of this lease, Lessor or his or her agent shall have the privilege of displaying the usual "For Sale" or "For Rent" or "Vacancy" signs on the demised premises and of showing the property to prospective purchasers or tenants. The 30 days was written in by the landlord; he could have specified a much longer time if he had wanted to or thought he might be selling the house. The only mention about permission for the landlord and or their agent to enter the premises is Lessor and his or her agents shall have the right at all reasonable times during the term of this lease and any renewal thereof to enter the demised premises for the purpose of inspecting the premises and all building and improvements thereon. There is nothing in there about allowing showings for the sale of the house other than the former paragraph mentioning the 30 days.
We have kept the property very clean and in good condition, and have vacated the property four times already for photographs and showings, and will continue to do so for the next month. When we once asked if a showing time could be changed (not cancelled) because the time was extremely inconvenient for our family we were told that the showing was going to happen whether we liked it or not.
Anyway, we wonder if it is the landlord who broke the lease when "For Sale" signs were posted, and showings to prospective buyers began before the last 30 days of our lease. We feel that when he decided to sell the house he should have offered to change our lease to month-by-month rather than expecting us to hang on to the last minute and go through who-knows-how-many months of showings, or threatening to take us to court.
You broke the lease as an owner has the right to list the house for sale! The sentence you reference to is just about the sign in the yard so you won't have to deal with months of having a for sale sign in the yard.
You have to allow showings if they have a decent time frame for the request which is 24 hours or whatever you agree to and not to annoy the tenant it should be limited to a qualified buyer and either combine showings or restrict to a limit amount of days/time per week/month.
I'm not sure about your State but Florida is a State where LL don't have to mitigate their damages but we have other things that different States don't have.
You broke the lease as an owner has the right to list the house for sale! The sentence you reference to is just about the sign in the yard so you won't have to deal with months of having a for sale sign in the yard.
Uh no, the clause also includes showings. Again, he has a right to list the house for sale - no argument. The clause does not forbid him from from doing so. But, the clause in the lease specifically states that he reserves the right to put up For Sale, For Rent or Vacancy signs, or do showings during the last 30 days of the lease. If he wants to sell the house before then, he has to tell us in writing and get our agreement to change what all parties (including the landlord) initially agreed to in the lease. The landlord, not us, specified the 30 days.
And in Hawaii, the landlord is required to mitigate damages by making a reasonable attempt as soon as possible to re-rent the property. And, on our island he would have an extremely difficult time trying to convince a judge that he wasn't able to find a renter in less than 30 days.
Last edited by ChezAloha; 11-02-2015 at 06:30 PM..
P.S. The landlord has listed the house for rent, just a few minutes after I wrote this. Same rent, but month-to-month lease. He'll have a new tenant lined up by Friday, and no loss of income.
What do you mean when you say he will have a new tenant by Friday?
What do you mean when you say he will have a new tenant by Friday?
He'll have a new tenant signed for the house ready to move in after our last day. House is advertised as being available December 1.
He posted the ad for the house late yesterday morning; we did one showing yesterday evening (they REALLY want the house), have three more today and at least three tomorrow that he's decided to send on for a showing. Who knows how many calls he's gotten though. He'll probably interview applicants on Thursday and Friday and sign a new lease with whomever he decides to accept. His rental stream will continue seamlessly and we'll get our deposit back on the 30th.
He's been very appreciative and thankful that we are doing the showings for him. And apologetic over earlier behavior and threats.
Man, if it hadn't been for that one sentence, it would be absolutely cut and dried that you broke the lease. Since you have stated you didn't know about that sentence when you did it, your intention was clearly to break the lease. So if that hadn't come up, I would be 100% in the "you messed up" camp.
But that wording does at least imply that the house won't be sold until your lease is up. In most cases, when one party of a contract has provided the contract, any benefit of the doubt is given to the other party, if there is a question of interpretation. But some states inherently side with the landlord or the tenant. If your state is inherently a landlord state, that would change things.
I do not agree that putting signs in the yard was the same thing as giving you 30 days notice, so in my opinion, you are the one who broke the lease. However, the landlord should have agreed to let you out of the lease without penalty if they decided to sell the house and you didn't want to stay and deal with it. But that should have been an actual conversation PRIOR to you signing a lease with someone else.
This is one that could go either way in court. From your last post, it sounds like you've worked things out and won't have to go that route. Be glad, because you could have lost as easily as won. In my opinion, both sides made mistakes here.
Yes, we initially thought we were breaking the lease and were quite worried about it, but then discovered that clause and realized our landlord hadn't lived up to his side of things either. We live in a unique area as far as rentals are concerned. Leases are broken all the time because it is so hard to find a new rental (I'm frankly surprised anyone here does a lease longer than 6 months). NO ONE waits until the end of their lease to start looking for a new place - you're a fool if you do. If you know that you need to move, or want to move because you've outgrown your house or something, you start looking as soon as possible and if something comes up that works for you, you sign a new lease and then inform your landlord. You don't give notice first and possibly lose the rental you have. It's just the way it is here on our island. Landlords roll with the punches, too - for every renter that leaves early there's 10-20 more waiting in the wings. I feel sorry for the people who viewed our house last night - they were only given a one month notice that their current landlord wouldn't be renewing their lease (she's also selling but wants the house empty). If they are not chosen for this house, they may end up homeless.
Anyway, we have never done anything like this before and would never have even considered breaking a lease before. I don't advise doing it either. But, know what's in your lease, and know what's happening in your rental market! We're living in a unique place with a unique rental market. Demand far, far outstrips supply. Our landlord's initial reaction and threats were kind of over-the-top, especially since he's been a landlord here for a long time and knows how it works. He's apologized, and is very thankful and appreciative now that we are showing the place for him and helping him find a new renter.
Last edited by ChezAloha; 11-03-2015 at 02:57 PM..
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