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I'm in King County, Wa., and I've been on a lease. It just expired and we are now on a month 2 month.
The LEASE states we have to give 60 days notice of vacating.
1)Does this also apply to a month to month or does it revert to the 20 day notice?
2)Are we still obligated to the expired lease terms?
3)Can the landlord legally enforce this now that we are M2M?
I have not found anything that states this answer clearly, so I'd also need reference material.
We are attempting to buy a home so we don't know when it would close, but it could close within 30days.
I had fun researching this one. Different states treat this differently, which I didn't know.
From what I found on the WA state website, when a lease ends, it's over. Then if the landlord accepts money afterwards, the agreement becomes a month-to-month agreement - and all laws pertaining to month-to-month agreements are then what rule.
So, looking up the laws, since a month-to-month agreement can be terminated in WA with only 20 days notice, that's all you have to give, in my opinion.
Here are the links I found that I think prove this:
This WA state web page says that when your lease ends and your landlord continues to accept money for you, you become a month-to-month tenant and laws for MTM tenants now apply:
If you move out at the end of a lease, you usually do not have to give your landlord any notice. Check your lease to make sure.
If you stay beyond the end of a lease and the landlord accepts rent for the next month, you become a "month-to-month" renter. All rules for month-to-month renters will now apply to you.
This is the law that says that your year lease ends when it ends (in other words, no terms carry over):
Since there are no other laws that make an exception for a lease becoming month-to-month and the terms carrying over, the above laws would rule. In my opinion.
At any rate, that is what I would argue. That in WA, when a lease ends, the terms do not carry over. That a new tenancy began that was a MTM agreement, with the MTM laws that would govern, which state that only 20 days notice is required.
Enjoy your new home :-)
Last edited by NoMoreSnowForMe; 02-27-2016 at 11:30 PM..
I see where NMSFM is coming from with those laws but in the quote it even says check the lease. You would need to find a law that prohibits a lease carrying over to month to month which I doubt exists. I would be willing to bet that if it is in your lease that it converts to month to month at the end of the original term then your landlord can hold you to 60 days notice. If it doesn't convert then you are able to leave right away, check the lease for notice terms in that situation. If you over stay a fixed term lease, one that does not convert to month to momth is a fixed term, you do become a holdover technically.
Last edited by AZ Manager; 02-28-2016 at 06:39 AM..
Thats basically the same thing I found but I had to read what links you gave, over and over and it finally makes sense sort of. LOL
Thanks for your time and post. It really is appreciated.
I 'm just not wanting to get slapped with a $3k penalty for not giving 60 days notice.
And thank you. We can't wait to move in.
AZ Manager,
The lease does state that if the lease ends and we stay, then we are on a MTM, and even gives terms of rental increase from lease to MTM. But its not stating specifically that when on a MTM 60 days notice is still required. This is the confusion.
I'm thinking I may have to get a lawyer. I don't want to mess up.
Last edited by moyaflyer; 02-28-2016 at 06:10 AM..
Reason: added
Thats basically the same thing I found but I had to read what links you gave, over and over and it finally makes sense sort of. LOL
Thanks for your time and post. It really is appreciated.
I 'm just not wanting to get slapped with a $3k penalty for not giving 60 days notice.
And thank you. We can't wait to move in.
AZ Manager,
The lease does state that if the lease ends and we stay, then we are on a MTM, and even gives terms of rental increase from lease to MTM. But its not stating specifically that when on a MTM 60 days notice is still required. This is the confusion.
I'm thinking I may have to get a lawyer. I don't want to mess up.
If it converts you would be safe to assume that all terms remain the same. My lease specifically says it, quoted below, and yours should to but it doesn't have to as long as it does convert to month to month. I do not see a law that prohibits a lease to convert to month to month at the end of the original term. The link in the 2nd quote has a hotline you might want to call before paying a lawyer, I do not know if it is free but most tenant unions are because they work on donations.
Quote:
at which time this Lease Agreement shall automatically continue on a month-to-month basis, with all other terms and conditions set forth herein remaining the same
Quote:
RCW 59.18.220 states that the tenancy ends at the end of the stated lease term. A lease expires at the end of the lease term unless the contract states otherwise. Typically, a one year lease may contain language that converts the tenancy to month-to-month at the end of the stated lease term. This means that for a tenant whose lease does not have language automatically extending its term, neither party needs to give written notice, and the tenant must either move out or negotiate a new term.
Why not ask your landlord? "Mr. Landlord, I'm not entirely clear how much notice I need to give now that our lease is expired. What is your expectation?" Do it via email and get it in writing.
......We are attempting to buy a home so we don't know when it would close, but it could close within 30days..........
You may be worried about nothing. Virtually no escrow closes in less than 30 days unless you are paying all cash with very few contingencies. You give 60 day notice as you go into escrow. By the time escrow closes you still have a week or maybe 2 weeks to prepare the new house, do your move, and clean up the rental.
If you have already purchased the new house and are in escrow that will finish within 30 days, then you are late in giving your notice.
Your lease says it converts to month to month. In that case, all the terms remain the same except for the length of the rental period.
Giving your notice means you give a firm date when you will be out. It doesn't mean that maybe you will be out and maybe you won't and you'll let the landlord know if you need to extend for a few days on several occasions before you are finally out. You'd better be darn sure that you are actually going to be out on the date that you give as your last day.
I see where NMSFM is coming from with those laws but in the quote it even says check the lease. You would need to find a law that prohibits a lease carrying over to month to month which I doubt exists. I would be willing to bet that if it is in your lease that it converts to month to month at the end of the original term then your landlord can hold you to 60 days notice. If it doesn't convert then you are able to leave right away, check the lease for notice terms in that situation. If you over stay a fixed term lease, one that does not convert to month to momth is a fixed term, you do become a holdover technically.
No, I disagree. The quote is only referring to ending the lease. What it says, is that by law, you don't have to give notice if you plan on moving out at the end of your lease. UNLESS, your lease says you have to give the landlord notice - that you are going to move out at the end of the lease. This no longer applies to the OP, who did not want to move out at the end of the lease.
Then, it says that if your landlord accepts money from you after the end of the lease, the lease becomes month to month, with all laws applying to MTM agreements.
When there isn't a written law that gives exceptions to the other written laws, then only the actual written laws are what rule. In other words, since there isn't a law that specifically addresses an exception for lease terms continuing once the tenant becomes a MTM tenant - then there is no reason to worry about it. The laws can't contain every single possibility of everything a law must prohibit. If there is no law that specifically prohibits something, then it's not prohibited.
Everyone is trying to make it more complicated than it is. The law is actually very simple and clear. It says:
1) when a landlord accepts rent after the termination of a lease, the agreement then becomes a MTM agreement; and
2) then all laws regarding MTM agreements apply.
There are no exceptions. And when the law does not include any exceptions - then there aren't any.
OP, the worst case scenario, would be that the landlord takes you to small claims court, or tries to keep your security deposit, so you take him to small claims court. Then the judge will decide if you owe any money. But, you just show him the law, which is really clear. And you will win. The law is all that matters in small claims court. I've helped people do this several times.
If you want to hear it from an attorney, though, this website is a cheap option. You can post a question for free, and usually multiple attorneys will answer you. Then you can talk to one for only $39 if you want to have a conversation with one. Be sure and post you're in King Co., WA:
Why not ask your landlord? "Mr. Landlord, I'm not entirely clear how much notice I need to give now that our lease is expired. What is your expectation?" Do it via email and get it in writing.
The landlord is telling the OP he has to give 60 days notice, which is incorrect. The OP needed law to show the landlord he's incorrect.
The landlord is telling the OP he has to give 60 days notice, which is incorrect. The OP needed law to show the landlord he's incorrect.
I didn't see the OP say anything of the sort so I don't know what you are talking about. The OP is trying to be preemptive here and wanting to know the amount of notice to give to avoid an argument in the future, at least that is what I read from what the OP wrote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMoreSnowForMe
No, I disagree. The quote is only referring to ending the lease. What it says, is that by law, you don't have to give notice if you plan on moving out at the end of your lease. UNLESS, your lease says you have to give the landlord notice - that you are going to move out at the end of the lease. This no longer applies to the OP, who did not want to move out at the end of the lease.
Then, it says that if your landlord accepts money from you after the end of the lease, the lease becomes month to month, with all laws applying to MTM agreements.
When there isn't a written law that gives exceptions to the other written laws, then only the actual written laws are what rule. In other words, since there isn't a law that specifically addresses an exception for lease terms continuing once the tenant becomes a MTM tenant - then there is no reason to worry about it. The laws can't contain every single possibility of everything a law must prohibit. If there is no law that specifically prohibits something, then it's not prohibited.
Everyone is trying to make it more complicated than it is. The law is actually very simple and clear. It says:
1) when a landlord accepts rent after the termination of a lease, the agreement then becomes a MTM agreement; and
2) then all laws regarding MTM agreements apply.
There are no exceptions. And when the law does not include any exceptions - then there aren't any.
OP, the worst case scenario, would be that the landlord takes you to small claims court, or tries to keep your security deposit, so you take him to small claims court. Then the judge will decide if you owe any money. But, you just show him the law, which is really clear. And you will win. The law is all that matters in small claims court. I've helped people do this several times.
If you want to hear it from an attorney, though, this website is a cheap option. You can post a question for free, and usually multiple attorneys will answer you. Then you can talk to one for only $39 if you want to have a conversation with one. Be sure and post you're in King Co., WA:
Many posters are speaking from experience from the laws in their state, but the law in WA is the above.
Disagree all you want, the quoted text from you isn't the actual law. The law isn't as clear as you think it is because you seem to be misunderstand key terms.
The actual law:
Quote:
(1) In all cases where premises are rented for a specified time, by express or implied contract, the tenancy shall be deemed terminated at the end of such specified time.
The reason this doesn't apply to the OP is in bold. The OP does not have a lease for a specified time the OP has a lease that renews into a month to month agreement which means the OP is in a lease for an indefinite time. If the lease didn't renew to month to month then sure what you are saying is accurate, kind of, but that isn't what the OP said the lease is.
Furthermore the law regarding month to month termination for indefinite term leases actually says 20 days or more and does not prohibit a written agreement from increasing this time frame from 20 days, the situation the OP is in.
Quote:
RCW 59.18.200
Tenancy from month to month or for rental period—Termination—Armed Forces exception—Exclusion of children—Conversion to condominium—Notice.
(1)(a) When premises are rented for an indefinite time, with monthly or other periodic rent reserved, such tenancy shall be construed to be a tenancy from month to month, or from period to period on which rent is payable, and shall be terminated by written notice of twenty days or more, preceding the end of any of the months or periods of tenancy, given by either party to the other.
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