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Good for you finding this out. Health Dept, whatever the asbestos group is, advocates, tv/paper news all the way. All the best to you in your new effort.
Thank you. All well wishes are appreciated. The agencies that would be involved in an asbestos issue here would make a pot of alphabet soup. EPA, state and federal, state and federal disability advocate offices, municipal building department, since this is commercial property with a full time maintenance department federal and state OSHA, it a pretty formidable array.
If there is proven to be or have been an exposure all people, and not just tenants, involved will have to be put in a medical monitoring program at the complex owners expense, AND if it is shown that the management/owners knew about the issue and said nothing, Well, that opens up criminal charges. The state AG gets involved and since this outfit receives federal funding the USAG as well. DOJ.
Not to mention the civil liability issues. That's why I'm being VERY careful and discrete with that. It's no Twinky thing. It's as serious as a gunfight. I'm not going to just go off half cocked. I know better. Like I said earlier the state and feds treat that stuff as methyl ethyl death.
And I have the proper training and experience to know it when I see it. Which is fully documented in both state and federal records. All my certifications are on file permanently. Because I worked with the stuff on a federal facility.
You could say I'm...marked for life. I'd "lol" that but its actually true. This situation has the potential to go nuclear. On a strategic scale. But im going to get all my facts verified beyond all doubt before I hit the big red button.
Its really kinda strange how I happened to wind up in the middle of this. It's like my whole life was geared towards this. It's very unusual for someone with the credentials and knowledge with such an issue to wind up involved in something like this as a tenant.
Just a lowly tenant in low income/disabled housing facing off with a multi million dollar giant. Talk about David and Goliath. The owners of this joint obviously believe they can just intimidate and bully their way through this. And none of us are capable of standing up to them.
They believe they are fully in control. Theres not a prayer of any dissent or resistance that they cant throw their clout or a few bucks at and just ride on through unopposed. So how did a guy like me end up here?
Seems rather odd. That one in a million shot these fleabags never thought could happen. So, I'll do my very best and try to help my neighbors. They helped me a lot when I was really sick even though they have their own problems.
Called emergency medical help when I needed it, always checking on me to make sure I was OK. I owe them. They've stood by me. Great group of folks. I figger I owe it to them to give this my very best shot.
The building is apparently for low-income disabled and elderly people. With the housing crunch, they have nowhere to go............
That's right. They have no where to go. If the management kicks them out, they will end up on the streets or living in a homeless shelter.
So, instead of kicking them out, they provide shelter during the day, allow them to keep their subsidized apartments, let them have a place to sleep at night that isn't under an overpass.
That sort of remodel is never just for fun. Something serious must be done to the building to keep it habitable. Construction crews must be allowed to get into the building to work.
But instead of being grateful that they haven't all been thrown out into the streets, there is all this talk of suing the landlord. Seriously, management is going to be sorry they didn't just kick them all out and be done with it.
I'm fine with taking care of the handicapped and elderly, but they can't afford housing and sometimes they must deal with some inconvenience in order to have cheap housing that they can afford.
That's right. They have no where to go. If the management kicks them out, they will end up on the streets or living in a homeless shelter.
So, instead of kicking them out, they provide shelter during the day, allow them to keep their subsidized apartments, let them have a place to sleep at night that isn't under an overpass.
"Shelter during the day" -- a trailer with no bathroom that would need to "house" dozens of people, many of them elderly, in the midst of a pandemic. A place to sleep at night -- that has no heat, no running water, no appliances, no toilets -- and that management tells them they still have to pay full rent for.
You keep ignoring those things, but they've been pointed out several times. And as other posters have pointed out, there are other ways to do renovations.
As for the rest, I give up. I am simply appalled by your posts in this thread.
Last edited by karen_in_nh_2012; 10-16-2020 at 12:45 PM..
First off, I am a landlord and it sickens me to hear stuff like this. I have always tried to treat tenants the way I'd like to be treated (yes, I did get burned once). Having said that, there is a second issue here. Original poster states building was built in 1972. Cut-off date for lead based paint I believe is 1978. EPA has strict regs when major rehab is done in those cases. Local Dept. of Building and Safety should also be very concerned about this (hopefully more than theoretically). Hope you are taking photos.
Thank you. All well wishes are appreciated. The agencies that would be involved in an asbestos issue here would make a pot of alphabet soup. EPA, state and federal, state and federal disability advocate offices, municipal building department, since this is commercial property with a full time maintenance department federal and state OSHA, it a pretty formidable array.
If there is proven to be or have been an exposure all people, and not just tenants, involved will have to be put in a medical monitoring program at the complex owners expense, AND if it is shown that the management/owners knew about the issue and said nothing, Well, that opens up criminal charges. The state AG gets involved and since this outfit receives federal funding the USAG as well. DOJ.
It really depends on what the asbestos issue is. You may be well trained, but I know a fair bit about ACM as well. I am going to add a few thoughts that you may have considered, but did not include in your post.
If your apartment complex has ACM plumbing insulation, tiles, window glazing, or any other materials as is likely for a structure built in 1972, that does not automatically create exposure and liability. Asbestos is not hazardous unless disturbed, and most insulated plumbing elbows are out of the way. Your statements about medical monitoring would not be applicable.
Now, if the job includes ACM remediation, then it is true that people cannot live there for the duration of the job. That would be a hazard. I am not a landlord, and I have no legal opinion on whether or not what your landlord wants to do by forcing you out is legal, although it sounds shady as f... It certainly is not ethical by any means.
It really depends on what the asbestos issue is. You may be well trained, but I know a fair bit about ACM as well. I am going to add a few thoughts that you may have considered, but did not include in your post.
If your apartment complex has ACM plumbing insulation, tiles, window glazing, or any other materials as is likely for a structure built in 1972, that does not automatically create exposure and liability. Asbestos is not hazardous unless disturbed, and most insulated plumbing elbows are out of the way. Your statements about medical monitoring would not be applicable.
Now, if the job includes ACM remediation, then it is true that people cannot live there for the duration of the job. That would be a hazard. I am not a landlord, and I have no legal opinion on whether or not what your landlord wants to do by forcing you out is legal, although it sounds shady as f... It certainly is not ethical by any means.
I would imagine that if the apartments are being gutted down to the studs, as described in the OP, any asbestos would likely be disturbed. Regardless, a person can’t be expected to live in a place with no running water or heat. That is certainly not habitable.
It really depends on what the asbestos issue is. You may be well trained, but I know a fair bit about ACM as well. I am going to add a few thoughts that you may have considered, but did not include in your post.
If your apartment complex has ACM plumbing insulation, tiles, window glazing, or any other materials as is likely for a structure built in 1972, that does not automatically create exposure and liability. Asbestos is not hazardous unless disturbed, and most insulated plumbing elbows are out of the way. Your statements about medical monitoring would not be applicable.
Now, if the job includes ACM remediation, then it is true that people cannot live there for the duration of the job. That would be a hazard. I am not a landlord, and I have no legal opinion on whether or not what your landlord wants to do by forcing you out is legal, although it sounds shady as f... It certainly is not ethical by any means.
Yes, I'm aware of all you said. And its disturbance that's the issue. Lead is a whole other kettle of fish. The scenario I'm talking about revolves around disturbing the PACM/ACM. Which is allegedly in the walls floors crawl spaces and attic spaces. They're pulling these places down to the studs, subflooring and redoing the duct work.
And like I said I'm not going off half cocked. I'm going to look at the suspect areas I can. My poking about will be done this weekend. I was tied up this week on some other issues and I dont want to be rushed.
I have access to the attic in my mechanical compartment so I'm going to stick my head up and shoot my hot rod light around. Take a good gander. I can take a look through the scuttle holes for the crawlspace too.
If I want to get really tricky, which I do,, I can look inside the walls at the plumbing with my fiber optic camera. A truly handy gadget. A small , discreet easily covered hole is all I need.
I sure haven't seen any inspectors doing any material sampling and I can plainly see suspect material just on the walls and ceilings. Both are heavily textured. As you say since they are also heavily painted any ACM is at this point encapsulated and thus not an exposure issue.
But demoing the walls and ceilings takes that out of the equation. As would removing ductwork and plumbing if they are indeed insulated with ACM. And without sampling and testing suspect material IS and must be treated as ACM. That's where the PACM caveat comes into play.
I assure you I'm not going to make any reports to anyone unless I see a problem. I'm not going to fly off in a fit of fiber phobia and cause a general panic. I have some research to do and am going to be very thorough.
If I were independently wealthy I'd pull samples on any and all suspect material scheduled for demolition and have them tested via TEM. As it is I couldnt afford PCM or PLM. If I could I wouldnt be living here to begin with.
Your points are valid and I have considered them. If the materials used on the systems that are to be removed are indeed are indeed ACM/PACM I will be able to tell. Cloth legging wrap and hard is a dead giveaway.
Given the methodology being used to run other issues associated with this project it wouldn't shock me if the corporation that owns these places were trying to dodge the cost of abatement/remediation by just not saying anything.
If the issues become apparent during the renovation and the contractor just keeps on trucking they could pin any fiber release on the contractor. And thus dodge any liability.
Its hokey for sure. But the thought processes the powers that be here are displaying are in keeping with that. Thanks for the input.
Yes, if the building is gutted to the studs, any asbestos will need to be remediated. I just assumed that if they were planning to gut to this extent, they would remove the asbestos appropriately. If they do that, and you are not in the space when it is done, there is no reason to worry.
I just assumed that you were worried about the renovation happening because there was an active case of disturbed asbestos.
Now, if the renovation happens, and there is ACM, and it is not encapsulated and disposed of appropriately, that is a huge problem.
The tenants are lucky to have someone with your experience, NVP. What the management company is doing is reprehensible. I have to wonder why the initial offer of alternate housing was offered, then withdrawn. Since federal money is footing the bill for the renovations, is the paid housing still on the table, but the management company plans to pocket it?
There is no way on Gods green earth they should be making tenants pay the utilities on their units when the workmen will be using the tenants electricity for their power tools during renovations. That is simply outrageous!
There is nothing worse than greed, and it sounds as though the management is exploiting people who don't have the means to financially or physically make other arrangements or put up a fight.
The tenants are lucky to have someone with your experience, NVP. What the management company is doing is reprehensible. I have to wonder why the initial offer of alternate housing was offered, then withdrawn. Since federal money is footing the bill for the renovations, is the paid housing still on the table, but the management company plans to pocket it?
There is no way on Gods green earth they should be making tenants pay the utilities on their units when the workmen will be using the tenants electricity for their power tools during renovations. That is simply outrageous!
There is nothing worse than greed, and it sounds as though the management is exploiting people who don't have the means to financially or physically make other arrangements or put up a fight.
That is exactly what they are doing. They hope to pocket cost cuts after the fact. It's the same with the asbestos issue and trying to force us to still pay rent and utilities during the work.
And it is outrageous! Serious slum lord hijinks. And they dont figure anyone living here gas anything remotely on the ball enough to challenge them. Got news.
The money was released four months ago. And as far as pre project inspection and planning all that has been done is a sweep for bedbugs. Which is another story and another bad joke.
I am going to take this to the mat. I hot enough to boil high pressure steam.
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lead paint
