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I would wait until you move out to go after the plumbing bill to avoid more negative issues and on top of that I'm not sure if you are right.
Do you have in writing that the LL told you to arrange the plumber?
As a tenant you have to be careful to have plumbing fixed without the LL there to hear what's need to be fixed and I'm a LL and I never have my tenants pay one penny to a plumber. I take care of the payment and will be there to hear upfront whats wrong and what the cost will be...to avoid what you are going through..
what would you recommend? i don't want to break any laws, or get my family into something worse than we're already into...
i have until april 1st before i pay rent, so i have time to think things over.
Start with your lease, always start with your lease.
Does it spell out who pays for repairs? Most of the leases I've signed have some sort of policy written out. Some require you to call THEM first and allow them to call their own repair guy. Some spell out that they are not responsible for clogged toilets, if the problem is not caused by roots, etc. Some spell out that you are responsible for the first $100 of a plumbing bill, some say anything over $100. Some say that all requests must be submitted in writing. If it was an emergency repair, be sure the plumber has made a note to the effect that the toilet was inoperational, and the only one on the premises on the bill, or have him swear out a statement - if it ends up going to mediation or court, you'll need this. I've seen cases where the LL's defense is that it wasn't an emergency because the house has 2 toilets - a justifiable defense - while the tenant swears the home has one. Better to be prepared, than caught unawares.
If it's not spelled out in the lease, then the law usually sides with the renter/tenant. Before withholding the amount due from your rent, call and speak with an attorney or a tenant's rights specialist in your state. Also, if the lease you signed says that you agree to mediation and you file a lawsuit, you could be on the hook for MORE costs. Don't 'jump the gun' here.
If you withhold any part of the rent, worse than the LL attempting to evict you will be the late fees. In addition to getting him to foot the bill, I'd also look into your rights as to breaking the lease and moving. If you are in the right here, then you need to find a better situation - you have young children and things WILL happen.
The odds of courts favoring renters varies greatly by jurisdiction and in my experience the odds of courts siding with a tenant that does not pay the full amount of their rent for any reason short of truly "slum lord" levels of abandonment of the property are slim -- given that this sounds like a single family house, not some tenament, a leaky drain and stopped up toilet hardly constitutes extreme neglect...
it's a single family house, with one bathroom...and like i said, i called the LL immediately, advised him of the situation, and that i needed it fixed asap. he said, sorry, not my problem, and to take care of it myself. the day this happened, we literally birthed our second child.
on a good note, we've already bought a home, and are just waiting for closing on april 30th. the lease runs out on may 31st. i'm going to make a few phone calls monday before i do anything, but i still haven't heard back from the landlord, he's 2 hours away, so i understand he just can't come by on a whim, but i did tell him in my last email that the only way i would feel right about footing the bill was if he had another reputable plumber out here to look at the plumbing and tell me it's good to go. if that happens, then i'll have no issue with the expense.
this email was after i phoned him about the plumbing expense. i advised him what the Plumber told me, and he said to give him the Plumber's phone number, and he would get back to me. this email was him getting back to me:
"Hey,
I hope all is well with you guys and I hope your enjoying that new baby! Any how I spoke with that plumber yesterday . He said he THOUGHT that the lateral line was too steep causing the sewerage to back up. But, he could not say for sure. That is what I do for a living is put in lateral lines dig ditches pave roads ect. I have put dozens of sewer lines in and with the new schedule 40 pipe that cant happen if it was old terracotta pipe that does happen . I have had that sewage pip exposed before when I was digging for the garage and I personally know it does not have too much fall. Just to make sure I was not losing my mind. I called 2 other plumbers to verify that too much fall is not a possibility. They also said with the new pipe unless it was almost vertical that is not possible. What they did all say was make sure no one is flushing baby wipes even if they say flushable they are not! Also any type of sanitary napkins should not be flushed. Over time they can get hung up on rough edges of the plastic pipe. We lived there for 5 years and had 1 clog in the toilet and it was due to my 3 year old flushing a styrofoam cup. So im not sure what caused the line to be cloged but I can assure you its not from the line being too steep. So I am at a loss of what to say . But if there is anything I can do let me know .
LL"
i responded with:
LL,
I'm certain that the plumbing caused this expense. We are not flushing baby wipes down the toilet. We have two people using that toilet, and most of the time, I'm not here at the house. I'm no plumber, but I can say after looking at it with my Dad and the Plumber, it just isn't right, and keeping it as-is will only cause it to happen again. This isn't the first time it's backed up. I believe my wife told you that when you were out here last time.
I used a 6.5 foot auger before we called the plumber, and it didn't get the job done. I don't know how else to explain that besides faulty plumbing. With that being said, I don't see how I should be responsible for the expense. The only way I would be okay with footing the bill, is if you get another reputable plumber out here to give me evidence that the plumbing is good to go.
Also, when you came out to fix the last plumbing issue, you asked that we let you know if we still are getting sewage gasses in the house, and in my email to you on Feb 27th, I let you know.
Please mail me our Rental Agreement, I didn't make a copy of it when I mailed the originals back to you.
I don't see why you have to diagnose the problem, so whether it is the slope or something else isn't the point. If you aren't flushing anything other than toilet paper and it is getting clogged, that is all that matters. It sounds like you're going to have to take the guy to court.
If you want to know how rediculous a landlord can get in blaming a tenant for their problems, the back wall of my apartment lets in a couple gallons of water every time it rains so a 50 sq foot area of carpet is always wet. For the first couple weeks he wanted to know if it was because of my cat. What a fool. I'm moving out Monday and I think he's about to get a fine.
what would you recommend? i don't want to break any laws, or get my family into something worse than we're already into...
i have until april 1st before i pay rent, so i have time to think things over.
I wasn't able to get back to you on the question and see there have been several later responses, including more details from your end.
I would wait to hear from the Urban Rental Association PA you contacted and, as you noted, your next rent isn't due until April 1 so you have some breathing time both to await their response and also wait to hear from your LL. I know it's a frustrating situation, but take that deep breath and just be patient - and pay no attention to the disgruntled tenant respondents who have a total bug up their behinds about bad landlords and urge you to immediately sue, sue and sue. Your situation is nowhere near that stage. The problem has apparently been solved at least temporarily (right?) and you're planning on leaving anyway once your house deal ownership is completed - and congratulations on that, by the way!
There are as many bad tenants as there are bad landlords and the response you received from your landlord really does sound quite reasonable and it sounds as though you pretty much have a good relationship so work within that frame before taking any major leaps through big hoops. Your LL may not be technically correct on all counts but you also weren't legally correct in calling in a plumber without the LL's knowledge or approval so it works both ways.
By April 1st you should have a lot more answers to hand but I would urge you again NOT to deduct that bill from your rent. Breathe! Cheers!
I wasn't able to get back to you on the question and see there have been several later responses, including more details from your end.
I would wait to hear from the Urban Rental Association PA you contacted and, as you noted, your next rent isn't due until April 1 so you have some breathing time both to await their response and also wait to hear from your LL. I know it's a frustrating situation, but take that deep breath and just be patient - and pay no attention to the disgruntled tenant respondents who have a total bug up their behinds about bad landlords and urge you to immediately sue, sue and sue. Your situation is nowhere near that stage. The problem has apparently been solved at least temporarily (right?) and you're planning on leaving anyway once your house deal ownership is completed - and congratulations on that, by the way!
There are as many bad tenants as there are bad landlords and the response you received from your landlord really does sound quite reasonable and it sounds as though you pretty much have a good relationship so work within that frame before taking any major leaps through big hoops. Your LL may not be technically correct on all counts but you also weren't legally correct in calling in a plumber without the LL's knowledge or approval so it works both ways.
By April 1st you should have a lot more answers to hand but I would urge you again NOT to deduct that bill from your rent. Breathe! Cheers!
thanks for the level-headed responses...
you're right in that, the LL and I have had a pretty good relationship thus far. There have been some issues, which i noted, also, when we arrived at the house, after traveling 1300 miles from TEXAS, the home was filthy...my wife scrubbed all the floors, there was about 2 13 gallon trash bags full of trash that was left in the kitchen cabinets, and i had to have him come out and put two junction boxes in the basement...the electrical is scary in the house btw.
he knocked $100 off our first months rent for our cleaning we did, which i was thankful for, but in all honesty, i felt $100 was a little low and was expecting more.
so, i'll make sure i do my due diligence before taking any action, i'm thankful for the input, and i'll keep you posted. and just for the record, i would rather eat the $500 rather than go to court, i don't have the time or money to go that route!!
***what do you think about my response of having another reputable plumber coming out to look at the plumbing?? i mentioned to the LL when i noticed the missing junction boxes that i felt for my family's safety we should have an inspector come out, and that's when he immediately came out to put the junction boxes in...he said it was "on his list"...but i'm the one that brought it up!
I'd go small claims rather than brining yet another perosn in who doesn't know why the plumbing clogged. The law is the law, is the landlord responsible or is the tenant in your state? That is the issue. I'm renting in Ca. and we just went through a major plumbing clog and the landlord covered it.
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