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My FIL, age 89, went to the dentist. Unknowingly, he signed a couple of documents. Turns out it was $15K worth of "work" to be financed even though he didn't need the "work" - now, his credit is ruined b/c of this b/c when he got billed, he said these are not mine and threw them away.
The "work" was never completed properly. (We had questioned him before knowing of this b/c we saw he had a problem eating and seemed to choosing softer foods - which were always a dislike).
I would think the above practice is more common than you think.
My FIL went to complain and the dentist said "sorry, you signed the forms"
BTW, he also gets call/e-mails/letters from tons of financial institutions - not just insurance sales people. No one has ever told him at age 89 that he cannot make a decision.
This is all sort of funny. Just imagine a world for us seniors with no bombarding of literature and advertisement from insurance salesman. No tv commercials, no phone calls. The mere thought of sends fear down my spine. Next thing we know the guys knocking on the door saying they are in the neighborhood and have left over ashpalt will stop bothering seniors with asphalt driveways. What will us old folks do without helpful people willing to organize our finances for a commission. I think it interesting that the OP noted that she didn't need the money. Did that make her fair game or something. How do they know that?
Tuborg, where do I find that utopia? Are you suggesting that I could actually stop screening my calls?
Let me see, help organizing my finances? I would probably be better off taking my chances in Las Vegas. I save someone else the trouble and do it myself through Fidelity and Vangard so I hope I'm not cheating someone else out of my money. If I mess up my own finances, it is only my own doing and I don't need help with that.
Curmudgeon, once again your wisdom shines through about age being a relevant factor when it comes to long-term, fiscal commitments. Isn't that logic counter to their commission based sales?
Many of the financial gurus on t.v. also advise against buying a financial product from an insurance agent as their fiduciary responsibility is not with their victim, I mean client, but with their corporation. No, I don't follow their advice but that is one thing they say that I agree with - not buying financial products from an insurance company. I wonder whether the lady was provided with a written fiduciary statement from the insurance agent as required by law.
OK, but what exactly did he do wrong and what must stop? Sell a product to a person who was deemed not competent? They said he should have known? The person still owns the product and has experienced a gain from owning it.. If a crime was committed and someone was harmed why are they not rescinding the policy and going back to day one?
Granted anyone who abuses a Senior should go to jail or whatever but in this case going forward why should any agent do business with anyone over say age 55 if there's a chance later on he/she might be charged with a crime? Unless it's something blatant how is an agent supposed to know the mental capacity of anyone?
Gimmee a break! By his own admission, he had concerns. He (allegedly) asked "Lou" whether Fran had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's or dementia. He knew friggin well she was not only confused but was being led by the hand of his former client. A 5 year surrender period for an 83 year old woman who couldn't make her way to the agent's office without the "assistance" of her partner? Seriously, if I had pulled this crap I would have been disbarred. (And if I had suggested that the client draft a will naming me as one of her beneficiaries, I probably would have been criminally charged.) Whenever I had family members who requested that I draft a power-of-attorney for their dearly beloved, I always spoke with the potential client ALONE and always conferred with the potential client's physician regarding competency. Is it too much to ask of an insurance agent to at least speak with the client ALONE? Is it too much to get a release to speak with his or her physician? Or how about the agent asking Fran to explain to him what she thought was purchasing, along with the total expenses associated with the purchase? Is that too time consuming?
Is an 8% commission reasonable? What were the other fees? If she merely wanted a steady income stream, then why not an immediate annuity? (Not that I think even that would be necessary given her age and savings.) In terms of her not complaining - she's demented, remember? And even if she were not demented, many seniors are too embarrassed to admit they've been scammed.
Do you really believe that the average 55 year old and the average 85 year old have the same cognitive ability? Really?
Did you not read the agent's letter to the judge and his various responses to the posters on your link? You should have noticed that he never gave a complete answer to his colleagues' questions.
The agent is a convicted felon. IMO, he is also a liar and a scam artist.
BTW - I'm surprised Mathjak107 has not joined in this thread. He loves explaining how this type of annuity is a ripoff.
Gimmee a break! By his own admission, he had concerns. He (allegedly) asked "Lou" whether Fran had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's or dementia. He knew friggin well she was not only confused but was being led by the hand of his former client. A 5 year surrender period for an 83 year old woman who couldn't make her way to the agent's office without the "assistance" of her partner? Seriously, if I had pulled this crap I would have been disbarred. (And if I had suggested that the client draft a will naming me as one of her beneficiaries, I probably would have been criminally charged.) Whenever I had family members who requested that I draft a power-of-attorney for their dearly beloved, I always spoke with the potential client ALONE and always conferred with the potential client's physician regarding competency. Is it too much to ask of an insurance agent to at least speak with the client ALONE? Is it too much to get a release to speak with his or her physician? Or how about the agent asking Fran to explain to him what she thought was purchasing, along with the total expenses associated with the purchase? Is that too time consuming?
Is an 8% commission reasonable? What were the other fees? If she merely wanted a steady income stream, then why not an immediate annuity? (Not that I think even that would be necessary given her age and savings.) In terms of her not complaining - she's demented, remember? And even if she were not demented, many seniors are too embarrassed to admit they've been scammed.
Do you really believe that the average 55 year old and the average 85 year old have the same cognitive ability? Really?
Did you not read the agent's letter to the judge and his various responses to the posters on your link? You should have noticed that he never gave a complete answer to his colleagues' questions.
The agent is a convicted felon. IMO, he is also a liar and a scam artist.
BTW - I'm surprised Mathjak107 has not joined in this thread. He loves explaining how this type of annuity is a ripoff.
Awesome, want to rep but I need to spread but well done!
Gimmee a break! By his own admission, he had concerns. He (allegedly) asked "Lou" whether Fran had been diagnosed with Alzheimer's or dementia. He knew friggin well she was not only confused but was being led by the hand of his former client. A 5 year surrender period for an 83 year old woman who couldn't make her way to the agent's office without the "assistance" of her partner? Seriously, if I had pulled this crap I would have been disbarred. (And if I had suggested that the client draft a will naming me as one of her beneficiaries, I probably would have been criminally charged.) Whenever I had family members who requested that I draft a power-of-attorney for their dearly beloved, I always spoke with the potential client ALONE and always conferred with the potential client's physician regarding competency. Is it too much to ask of an insurance agent to at least speak with the client ALONE? Is it too much to get a release to speak with his or her physician? Or how about the agent asking Fran to explain to him what she thought was purchasing, along with the total expenses associated with the purchase? Is that too time consuming?
Is an 8% commission reasonable? What were the other fees? If she merely wanted a steady income stream, then why not an immediate annuity? (Not that I think even that would be necessary given her age and savings.) In terms of her not complaining - she's demented, remember? And even if she were not demented, many seniors are too embarrassed to admit they've been scammed.
Do you really believe that the average 55 year old and the average 85 year old have the same cognitive ability? Really?
Did you not read the agent's letter to the judge and his various responses to the posters on your link? You should have noticed that he never gave a complete answer to his colleagues' questions.
The agent is a convicted felon. IMO, he is also a liar and a scam artist.
BTW - I'm surprised Mathjak107 has not joined in this thread. He loves explaining how this type of annuity is a ripoff.
Let me ask you this. If you felt a client was damaged would you at least request they be made whole before the act? they know what the product is and they know where the funds are.. As for him knowing anything about her mental state is all an assumption. I tend to lean toward he had no clue at the time. Also remember he did contact the son and there was a 30 day free look so the Annuity could be returned to the company...From my understanding there was no complaint from her side of the family..
So I ask again where was the harm? It looks like if they canceled the transaction and went back to day one the client may experience a loss.. I wouldn't think anyone not even the state would like to open up that can of worms..
Let me ask you this. If you felt a client was damaged would you at least request they be made whole before the act? they know what the product is and they know where the funds are.. As for him knowing anything about her mental state is all an assumption. I tend to lean toward he had no clue at the time. Also remember he did contact the son and there was a 30 day free look so the Annuity could be returned to the company...From my understanding there was no complaint from her side of the family..
So I ask again where was the harm? It looks like if they canceled the transaction and went back to day one the client may experience a loss.. I wouldn't think anyone not even the state would like to open up that can of worms..
you answered part of our concern with your last paragraph. If the policy was cancelled she would take a loss. Would her estate be worth less if she died tomorrow? What would her heirs get from her 175K annuity investment. I believe somewhere it was said she didn't need the money so did that make it ok? Is this how the industry feels or just your opinion? Is this how business feels the wealth of those reaching the end should transferred to them? What is the life expectancy of anyone 83 years old with dementia? Should she not have full use of that money for her remaining years of limited competence for medical care? Do you realize this is a forum of many seniors and limited insurance agents? Whose side did you expect us to be on? Were you trying to move us to be outraged on the side of the agent? Do you really think many of us believe that the insurance business would abandon us poor old folks and focus their predatory practices on the young( not that all agents are predators). However their earning power is dependent on other peoples money being directed in a direction they are selling. If after all of this you are not feeling the love, we are truly sorry. We seniors are kind and loving people who just want to feel secure in our retirement and many of us are suspect of those who want to prey on that need for security.
you answered part of our concern with your last paragraph. If the policy was cancelled she would take a loss. Would her estate be worth less if she died tomorrow? What would her heirs get from her 175K annuity investment. I believe somewhere it was said she didn't need the money so did that make it ok? Is this how the industry feels or just your opinion? Is this how business feels the wealth of those reaching the end should transferred to them? What is the life expectancy of anyone 83 years old with dementia? Should she not have full use of that money for her remaining years of limited competence for medical care? Do you realize this is a forum of many seniors and limited insurance agents? Whose side did you expect us to be on? Were you trying to move us to be outraged on the side of the agent? Do you really think many of us believe that the insurance business would abandon us poor old folks and focus their predatory practices on the young( not that all agents are predators). However their earning power is dependent on other peoples money being directed in a direction they are selling. If after all of this you are not feeling the love, we are truly sorry. We seniors are kind and loving people who just want to feel secure in our retirement and many of us are suspect of those who want to prey on that need for security.
Nope! He just doesn't get it. During my years as an advocate for seniors regarding health insurance issues it was always a great pleasure to be instrumental in the charging and prosecution of rogue agents as well as seeing to it that many who were less than honest lost their licenses. I'm not saying that the vast majority were culpable for fraud and fiduciary abuse but there were certainly enough of them to keep me and others gainfully employed. This is one "sale" I don't think the OP will be able to close. The admonition to "know your audience" leaps immediately to mind.
Give the article a good read again. The senior client did not file a complaint. The client still has the Annuity and is satisfied. There was no theft because the money involved never was touched by the agent. The client made more money by the transaction than if they left the money in the bank.
The point is the state is basically saying the agent should have known she was in the early stages of dementia. He's not a doctor and the only way he would know if anything is wrong is if he noticed her forgetting questions or something like that.. If see seemed fine to him how was he supposed to know? Then again the insurance company Ok'd the sale.
What is going to come out of this is many agents may shy away from doing business in the Senior market. Especially when there's a chance later on someone coming back and saying they committed a crime when everything was done legally and up front.
I wonder if this is going to be an election year topic?
Why did the OP throw this in with their second post? Was there another agenda in starting this thread? Perhaps political about government over reach and was there an intended direction for the thread that didn't materialize? I found this curious on first read and am still wondering the relevance of.
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Now let's hope the OP finally understands.
