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Old 03-07-2015, 09:52 AM
 
4,765 posts, read 3,710,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Perhaps part of the reason for so much tension real or imagined is because:

There is a movement among some in our society to increase the redistribution of wealth from the haves to the have nots. Guess what the haves are fighting back and telling the have nots why. Expect more of it as means testing and redistribution advocates continue to divide us. Perhaps it is valid and necessary but what is justified often has unintended consequences. We as retirees are probably prime candidates to strike back. Why? We have reached the fruition stage of our life long financial efforts and are in the prime of reflecting on those efforts in the context of others. I can remember a few years ago my status in CD was "Get your hand out of my pocket".
I would say that is a very astute observation.
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Old 03-07-2015, 09:58 AM
 
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Originally Posted by shaker281 View Post
I would say that is a very astute observation.
I say this tongue in cheek and you visit multiple forums. This is sorta like a war between the investing forum and the frugal forum. Oh yeah and with the personal finance forum split on each side.
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Old 03-07-2015, 10:09 AM
 
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Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
I say this tongue in cheek and you visit multiple forums. This is sorta like a war between the investing forum and the frugal forum. Oh yeah and with the personal finance forum split on each side.
Another good observation. I like to think I see the value in both sides of that equation. And I try not to judge. Though, sometimes one must identify underlying causes in order to make appropriate adjustments. That, I suppose, can be misconstrued as blame or fault finding, when it is just part of the process. For instance, how would you help a person who is morbidly obese, as a result of overeating, without them acknowledging that fact? Now, if it is a medical condition, then that would be a different story. Maybe a bad analogy. I'll probably get flamed for using it. LOL
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Old 03-07-2015, 10:15 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Montanama View Post
I understand what you are saying, but isn't the word "fault" your unnecessary stumbling block? The word doesn't hurt my feelings or elicit an emotional reaction in me beyond its meaning. What word would be better, cause you less agitation, and allow you to simply read the message for what it means, not what you ascribe it to mean somewhere in the subtext? (I'm asking seriously, so hard to communicate tone.)

I have spent my life, probably to a slightly unhealthy degree, lol, seeing my actions as my responsibility, and the outcomes I've experienced are mine too. I guess that's why some people, like me, can look at the good things that have happened (comfortable retirement, for example) and say, "Yes, I did good there." (YES, I am always acknowledging that good fortune played a part in that--but I don't need to constantly remind people that we have overcome certain large obstacles to get here either. And our planning included those obstacles, btw. I'm not chastizing ANYONE. I'm not lecturing ANYONE. I'm not bragging! I'm just saying that I was grateful when good luck came our way, but I saw planning for bad luck as my responsibility as well--for me maybe "fault" simply means "responsibility", but I don't see it as a "recrimination" or have an emotional reaction to it.)

The flip side of that coin is that the word "fault" doesn't hurt me. When I say "my fault" and acknowledge responsibility for something, it is EVERY time a learning moment where I know I had the power to do something differently, where I accept the outcome of my actions, and where I decide to do something differently in the future if I want a different outcome. That is all that word means to me.

If someone uses that word in a situation where it doesn't fit--where in fact I am not responsible for an outcome, I can't see why it would hurt me.

But I do understand it's a loaded word for many. For me it means what it means, I look within and check, learn if I need to so I do something different next time. That's it. If not, I let that word go.

But for you, it stops you in your tracks and the word has different connotations that cloud the rest of the post's meaning. So I'm sincerely asking, what word would be better?

And must every post be completely devoid of anything that would possibly trigger any given individual's negative emotional reaction in order to have value?

And there you have it! An individual who truly understands personal responsibility can easily accept their "faults" and overcome them. A person who is unable to acknowledge their "faults" is doomed to repeat history.

Perhaps this is a function of having a past riddled with authority figures who blame, rather than support. Though, that may be a bit over simplified.

Also, good job not getting defensive yourself, something I have to remain vigilant not to fall victim to when challenged.

Last edited by shaker281; 03-07-2015 at 10:34 AM..
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Old 03-07-2015, 10:17 AM
 
31,672 posts, read 40,893,182 times
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Originally Posted by shaker281 View Post
Another good observation. I like to think I see the value in both sides of that equation. And I try not to judge. Though, sometimes one must identify underlying causes in order to make appropriate adjustments. That, I suppose, can be misconstrued as blame or fault finding, when it is just part of the process. For instance, how would you help a person who is morbidly obese, as a result of overeating, without them acknowledging that fact? Now, if it is a medical condition, then that would be a different story. Maybe a bad analogy. I'll probably get flamed for using it. LOL
Food for thought and those of us who are part of my use of the word we will know who they are:

In the great financial meltdown along with other crashes along the way we took it hard like a dagger that would have made the more timid flee. We stayed the course at great and frequent criticism and now you want what? Please don't point a finger at us but engage us in a civil dialog about a crisis and not demagogue based class warfare.
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Old 03-07-2015, 10:24 AM
 
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Originally Posted by DaveinMtAiry View Post
Again the opening topic was why don't we hear more from those who are struggling. As much as I like mathjak i used his post as a perfect example of why this may be the case here.

You may have grown thicker skin. Or maybe you have not been in the same situation as the poster in rural West Virginia who had no choice but to work a low end job with no chance for advancement, only to read a post saying it was his own fault and a bad choice. Or the poster who had a solid career and an emergency fund who had the audacity to purchase cable TV, only to be told later after a few tragic events wiped out his emergency fund, that purchasing cable TV was a bad decision and has led to the current situation of near poverty. If I were in those situations I'd see a post like that and no doubt leave the board, or at the very least be inclined not to speak up.

I wasn't trying to bash MJ. Just trying to stay on topic.
Very good point and well said. And on point. And there are those who would do just as you say. And there are those who understand that not everyone who is in dire financial straits deserved that outcome. I see Mathjak as the guy who is giving financial advice to someone who has some measure of control over their life and finances, not a guy who blames others for circumstances beyond their control.

That being said you have a valid observation regarding those who are oblivious to other peoples challenges!
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Old 03-07-2015, 10:26 AM
 
4,765 posts, read 3,710,162 times
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Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Food for thought ...
Was that an intentional pun? LOL
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Old 03-07-2015, 10:31 AM
 
4,765 posts, read 3,710,162 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Food for thought and those of us who are part of my use of the word we will know who they are:

In the great financial meltdown along with other crashes along the way we took it hard like a dagger that would have made the more timid flee. We stayed the course at great and frequent criticism and now you want what? Please don't point a finger at us but engage us in a civil dialog about a crisis and not demagogue based class warfare.
Totally agree. The great recession wiped out half of everything we had built over 30 years. I stayed the course as well and these forums were full of people capitalizing on the downturn to push their political agendas. It was at times disconcerting, no matter how much one tried to remain upbeat and above it all.

Folks like us have basically been vindicated and still some would demonize.
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Old 03-07-2015, 10:37 AM
 
31,672 posts, read 40,893,182 times
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Originally Posted by shaker281 View Post
Totally agree. The great recession wiped out half of everything we had built over 30 years. I stayed the course as well and these forums were full of people capitalizing on the downturn to push their political agendas. It was at times disconcerting, no matter how much one tried to remain upbeat and above it all.

Folks like us have basically been vindicated and still some would demonize.
Perhaps this is a fair exchange for moving forward and helping those in need. I will means test if you will needs test. The challenge is allowing people to safely explain their worthiness for money being taken from another to them. That is why this discussion has turned nasty as it is personal on each side and that is unfortunate.
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Old 03-07-2015, 10:39 AM
 
4,765 posts, read 3,710,162 times
Reputation: 3038
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Originally Posted by TuborgP View Post
Perhaps this is a fair exchange for moving forward and helping those in need. I will means test if you will needs test. The challenge is allowing people to safely explain their worthiness for money being taken from another to them. That is why this discussion has turned nasty as it is personal on each side and that is unfortunate.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TuborgP again.
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