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While this is not a minimalist ilist forum, frugality is certainly met with more positive reactions than success based on smart planning, foresight and hard work. And it is a relatively small percentage of posters that get upset. But as mentioned, I have nothing to contribute to or learn from those posters. I have little in common with them, with regards to retirement planning. I do not visit (intentionally) their threads or provide input. I do not suffer their troubles. I hope I never do. I rarely mean to intentionally insult anyone, but I have been accused of social Aspergers many times. Most engineers I know have some degree of social Aspergers. Big Bang has made it more acceptable or understandable, recently.
Congratulations on your success achievement! It is a great feeling. Had I not divorced twice and given half of everything I owned away each time, I believe I could have been there earlier than I am now. But thats fine. I would rather be happy in my life now, working a few more years, than miserable with more money, retiring earlier.
@Belladl : really? Only 24k/hr non discretionary? $2k/mo sure seems low for everything like health, food, taxes, clothing, maintenance etc, etc. Is that from your last year of tracking costs?
I used to be in frugal forum and I shared how I survived on minimal resources and people was doubting and hostile to me. Maybe people in general are hostile period. Rich or poor, it doesn't matter.
I consider it somewhat of a minimalist forum and am much more inclined to share my numbers on the C-D Economics forum or the ER forum than here. Many of the C-D Retirement members can get rather mean spirited if you have a lot of retirement money and consider it bad form to talk about it. My personal opinion is that society's stigma against discussing money has always been a way of keeping people from sharing and becoming knowledgeable about financial matters and so keeping poor people in their place. Another hesitation that I have in discussing my financial specifics is that most of my retirement income will be due to a relatively large government pension so that makes me even more of a target for hate and discontent as can be seen in other public sector pension discussions on C-D.
The ER forum has more wealthy folks and people were not shy about sharing their numbers.
I agree, I've been on quite a few ER Bogleheads & FIRE threads too,and have seen some of your names. The discussions are more cut and dry there. Numbers have to be discussed, or there is little sense. However, the objective for most of the discussions is, as expected, to stop working as soon as possible, and retire early. I'm already past that age, based on that forum. Planning to retire at 62 is not RE to them. Often, though, the level of income is about keeping it intentionally below a rate where any taxes are paid. They base a lot on assuming SS will never be there, or only a small amount, since they will not have 35 years of earned income paying a lot in. I will always be well above that, and my SS will be at max, and is a major consideration. It is a younger crowd than here. And the assumption for many is that whatever income they have in their 40s or early 50s and have "retired" on will be perfectly fine for the next 40 plus years. So a lot is not applicable to me, but I do get good info, for investing, but the personality of those forums is less interesting to me, and a lot is recycled information.
IMO, while Frugality may be a great way to get to where you want to be, Savings wise, I can't or don't want to live that frugal my whole life or in retirement. More power to you all that can and enjoy doing that and living that way. But grind my own flour, can my veggies, make my clothes? No thanks. Not my cuppa tea. When I'm retired, those hours will be way too valuable to me. I do my own house, rental, auto etc maintenance and improvements, now, because the return in dollars per hour is there. But if my working as I am, which I want to do anyway, allows me to easily budget a 5 or 6k a month outflow to live how I want then I will, and in retirement I will only do those chores that I want to do to get the results I want. Not just to save $1000 here or there. If one lives well on a take home of 5 or 6k a month with a say $1600/mo P&I house payment, then one should have no problem living comfortably after the house is paid off, with an inflation adjusted income of the same, and funds put aside for LTC, and emergency funds.
For the OP, what those numbers will be for a new retiree in 22 years, is almost anyones guess. As I mentioned much earlier in this thread, when I started working in 1980 at $21k a year, I thought I was rich. Retirement was so far off, I only gave cursory thought to it. There were (and still are) SO many variables that to waste a lot of time worrying about them is counter productive. If you work and save and live a life where you are happy and as successful as you want to be, and that success puts you in, say the top 30% of income and savings of your peers, then don't fret one iota. You will have made it. That advice of course is useless and maybe insulting to the other 70%, I know. But one has to have the goal that is achievable, mentally and physically. A goal of saving millions is overwhelming if you obsess over it too young. A goal of doing better than most, is a lot easier to wrap your arms around.
Last edited by Perryinva; 01-06-2017 at 06:34 AM..
IMO, while Frugality may be a great way to get to where you want to be, Savings wise, I can't or don't want to live that frugal my whole life or in retirement. More power to you all that can and enjoy doing that and living that way. But grind my own flour, can my veggies, make my clothes? No thanks. Not my cuppa tea. When I'm retired, those hours will be way too valuable to me.
Perry,
I described my way of living to answer your question regarding our low living expense.
I highlighted the words "can and enjoy" in your remark because it is exactly why I do what I do.
To be honest, I have never thought that we have to live frugally to watch our gold pot grow, to be rich etc. It is just the way I (and my husband to a certain extend) was raised. We were taught by our parents to 'waste not, want not'. We are more proud of the fact that we are quite resilient, have the basic skills to be self-sufficient than being able to live off a fraction of our income and accumulate a nice retirement fund.
My PIL went through the depression and my parents went through some major upheavals in their life (lost everything and had to start from the bottom twice). They were scarred by life but in a good way because the hard life lessons made them stoic but self-confident and optimistic. I am glad that they impart those values to their children.
If anything, we have to try hard to not to be too much like our parents. They did not know how to enjoy the 'fruits of their labor'. They could not splurge a little here and there. As I mentioned in an old thread, my MIL lived with many regrets. She wanted to go to Europe but my FIL did not want to go so she went by herself. This forced him to follow her shortly. They seemed to enjoy the trip but years later when my MIL was quite ill after several strokes, she asked my husband to take her back to Paris and London. She told him that she wanted to stay in 'real' hotels with chandeliers and white carpet this time instead of budget lodgings. My husband could not fulfill her wish, she was too sick and frail.
In my postings, I had revealed some snippets of our lives here and there. There is no doubt that some people think we are 'fat cats' or quite well off because we own a plane and take 'exotic' trips. Others probably snicker while reading about how we shop at thrift stores, make our own food, clothing, stretching pennies here and there. It does not bother me a bit what people think. It's just our way of living and we are very contented and happy. I enjoy things big and small be it marveling at the sight of Mt. Cook while circling mountain tops in our NZ self-flying safari few years back or savoring the smell and taste of a golden loaf of bread bake from scratch with freshly ground organic wheat berries last night.
Not all of those on the FIRE forum are on a tight budget. There are a number that spend a good chunk on travel, snowbirding, etc. and I tend to be more interested in their responses and screen out the overly frugal types. Unfortunately most of their approaches to save on taxes won’t apply to me because I will be solidly in the 25% tax bracket from the get go being single with a pension. However the $85K threshold for singles keeps popping up for Medicare Part B and potentially for SS means testing so I’m still debating Roth conversions, delaying SS, etc. Where I have benefited from FIRE advice is starting an HSA, an online money market, better rewards credit cards, and handling my 401k. The forum has motivated me to stay with a conservative asset allocation although I do some occasional seasonal timing and my returns have improved. But I agree that I find C-D Retirement more interesting and feel a connection with our members because it is a broader slice of the population and the members share so much about themselves.
I could have retired at 60 but delaying until 62 has substantially increased my pension, 401k, and cash situation. One calculation I used in making this decision was that the extra pension would pay for a regular housecleaning service and some miscellaneous yardwork. When I figured out the time involved over the next 30 years in performing these chores, it made up for the 2 years. I’d rather spend that 2 time at the office on interesting professional work than cleaning a house. But age 62 is it. Beyond that I would be trading my few remaining healthy years for money.
Wow, I could have written that same post, word for word, except I am not single. Right on the mark.
@Belladl: I'm sure you know no offense or denigration meant at all to you or your life style. But just in case, as you highlighted, more power to you all and carry on! That answered my question of why you set that number so low. You are enjoying your lives together and that is part of what you enjoy. Finances for the future are not an issue, and you continue to grow your savings while doing what you want. But, in reality, I would think that number will not hold as you age, and you are no longer able to do those things.
I can fix about anything. I can count on one hand the number of times I've ever hired someone to do anything at my houses over the last 40 years. Am I frugal, smart, or cheap? A little of all 3? Typically, though, it is because I want something done my way, on my schedule. I would not re roof a house. Or hang a lot of sheetrock. Makes no sense. But about everything else, I do, now. But I KNOW I will not be doing hardly anything like that at 75 and up. So I better get my finances and lifestyle in order for that. We grew up in a non wasteful environment as well. My father and my mothers parents were all immigrants with basically nothing to start with. I would be ignoring a valuable example to learn from, if I didn't note what and how my (and my spouses) parents and grandparents live(d) at their ages through death, and what things cost and what those costs would translate to for me. And act accordingly..
Some people live frugal lifestyles but that is just how they live... they are not cutting back on anything.
The farming side is simply in love with the land/farm/community and would not have it any other way... and they never do really retire... even in his 90's my Grandfather had long ago turned over the farm to the next generation but was still very active and very much relied on for his knowledge... the farm had been in the family for generations and he was part of the community living history protect because he was that sharp...
They made one trip to California... the farthest they have ever been from the farm and had a wonderful time... we even did Disney and drove the coast... had and open invitation to visit anytime.
Grandma just wanted to know we had a good life here and that her daughter and family were OK...
For the most part most I know do not have millions... they may have a nice pension and because this is the SF Bay Area... they may have hundreds of thousands of dollars in equity from a long ago paid off home...
Mom lives very nicely on her Social Security and $300 each month from her 401k/Ira... in her words she wants for nothing...
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