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Thanks for this topic.
As a PK (preacher's kid) I'm torn over this subject myself. I confess I personally don't tithe. My mom (a pastor) was adamant her entire life about tithing on her gross. She even grossed on her social security and pension.
When my mom's care started to cost more than her income, I stopped her tithing. She had Alzheimer's. But I'll be darned if every couple of months she wouldn't ask me -- "Are you sending my tithe in?" I just said, "mom I'm taking care of that. don't you worry about it." But was not going to send tithe on her Social Security when we were tapping her savings for her care. I just wasn't going to do it.
I struggled with that, so I asked a co-worker (who is also a pastor) about it. He said, the you could think of her social security money as earnings she's already been taxed on that are just coming back to her. So he saw no problem with not paying title on Social Security…because Soc. Sec isn't really "first fruits." And when you think about it -- it really isn't.
As I said, I struggle with not tithing. Maybe it's a matter of faith? Disobedience? To tithe I guess you have to sort of believe the rest of what "The Good Book" says, and I'm not sure where I stand with that either. What can I say? Mentally and spiritually I guess "I'm not there yet."
It IS selfish to a certain extent to say I have to take care of myself, first. But, I DO. There was a time where I gave about $800-1K a year to the church and various charities that I believe in and are close to my heart. But I've cut that down to maybe…..$100-200. I'm just in a phase where I'm think about MY financial future, first.
I know many people, retired and otherwise, who give way more than 10% of their time to helping and serving others (including their own family members), and can't even claim a tax deduction for doing so.
DH & I have a Vanguard donor-advised charitable fund and by many standards would be considered "generous" givers, but the folks who so generously give their time to serve others put us to shame.
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Tithing, charity and retirement planning and living
It is most often a mindset / lifestyle, not related to 'retirement', but CAN be related to PLANNING (or not..., if you are REALLY serious about considering NOTHING is yours anyway)
Thought: Am I a steward of what I have been GIVEN?, or am I DESERVING of what I have acquired?
Gonna be different for everyone.
Options...(if you feel the need / urge);
GIVE your time - Truly your most treasured / and potentially your most valued / valuable asset
Encourage / volunteer to assist others to give - (As a seasoned 'citizen' YOU have info that many younger folks are clueless of needs) Ironically, my employer taught / modeled to me the MOST about giving (from age 17 on)
Leave a legacy - (does not need to be money)... touch someone else's life (teaching, caring) or donate some land / assets
Teach your KIDS to give - (Ours have no option.... they are the successor donors / administrators of our family foundation (instead of inheriting our meager wealth)
For financial giving this works GREAT: (you can set up automated gifting ($500 minimum as well as determine your investment mix)
Quote:
DH & I have a Vanguard donor-advised charitable fund
(without choice of investments, but still with SOME choice of gifting) = Community foundations, and many non-profits
(create this during a 'high tax' yr, or when you get another option to 'gift' from qualified acct to exhaust your RMD's). We fund ours with appreciated 'taxable' stocks. (Started at age 35)
It is most often a mindset / lifestyle and why I have driven a $35 car for 40 yrs, A good reminder to me, of where I have placed my wealth (invested it in others). Yes, at times I wish I had AC in my car, but many don't (yet most of the people I support do), but I don't NEED it. (they might (?), their choice). I gave my bonuses away to needy neighbors, cuz my freezer was full and I had my own firewood, BUT... I would have given it away if my freezer had been empty. I (We) are very blessed, and grateful for that. Would I like to spend my GIFTING allocation on $1700/ month A(?)CA? no (by choice), I would rather give those $$ away and depend on other 'means' to sustain my Healthcare needs). $1,700 / month is NOTHING to a HUGE medical care insurance company, but it might be EVERYTHING to someone who is hungry (or a LOT of someones!)
Tithing, charity and retirement planning and living Gonna be different for everyone.
Last edited by StealthRabbit; 11-16-2016 at 11:09 PM..
I struggled with that, so I asked a co-worker (who is also a pastor) about it. He said, the you could think of her social security money as earnings she's already been taxed on that are just coming back to her. So he saw no problem with not paying title on Social Security…because Soc. Sec isn't really "first fruits." And when you think about it -- it really isn't..
Your pastor friend needs to re-read the entire NT, especially the parts in red. There's no mention of anything resembling social security. Just saying.
Last edited by biscuitmom; 11-16-2016 at 11:14 PM..
Does tithing actually help society? It actually could hurt society.
Lets say a 30 year old who lives to 80 makes 100K and gives 10K to his church and is in the 30% tax bracket.
Church gets 10K, the govt has 3k less to pay for schools, social security, food stamps, student aid, senior services.
Now if that 30 year old bought a 50 year taxable bond yielding 6% with that 10K and lives to 80 he would be paying $180 a year in taxes on that 10k for 50 years or $9,k in taxes. Upon death the 10K bond is maturing and he owes 4k in estate taxes on that 10K. He also earned 21K interest on the bonds after taxes also estate taxed at 40% which equals $8,400.
So net net the tither took 3k from schools and social services when he gave 10K to his church because of the tax deduction and then an additional 21,400 in taxes. for a loss of 24,400.
Now if he reinvested the interest he got and with magic of compounding it would be a lot more. Meaning his kids would have a pile of money left over in the will and $24,400 was paid in taxes to help society as a whole.
Does tithing actually help society? It actually could hurt society.
Lets say a 30 year old who lives to 80 makes 100K and gives 10K to his church and is in the 30% tax bracket.
Church gets 10K, the govt has 3k less to pay for schools, social security, food stamps, student aid, senior services.
Now if that 30 year old bought a 50 year taxable bond yielding 6% with that 10K and lives to 80 he would be paying $180 a year in taxes on that 10k for 50 years or $9,k in taxes. Upon death the 10K bond is maturing and he owes 4k in estate taxes on that 10K. He also earned 21K interest on the bonds after taxes also estate taxed at 40% which equals $8,400.
So net net the tither took 3k from schools and social services when he gave 10K to his church because of the tax deduction and then an additional 21,400 in taxes. for a loss of 24,400.
Now if he reinvested the interest he got and with magic of compounding it would be a lot more. Meaning his kids would have a pile of money left over in the will and $24,400 was paid in taxes to help society as a whole.
The problem with that is that the giver knows the money is going to a food pantry or soup kitchen or whatever his charity of choice is, while the $24.4 paid in taxes to "help society as a whole" might very well be going toward bombs or into the pockets of special interest groups. More tax money given to "schools" sounds like a great idea, but it's not working. Trust me, I'm in NJ where huge bucks are being given to inner city schools with no results. The inner city schools get 22% more per student, and the only improvement is in the elementary grades. The high school kids are still dropping out, doing drugs, and shooting one another. Wouldn't it be better to give directly to help those families caught in those neighborhoods who do care and want a way out?
Sorry to go off on a tangent there
This year I was able to give a little more to charity because I retired, which ended paying for healthcare (I am grandfathered in and get my healthcare paid for) and commuting, which was around $400 a month, plus I got a part-time job in retirement that pays pretty well in addition to the pension. I do not tithe, although my parents always did--they tithed on gross pay plus my father's 100% disabled service pension, and they got audited regularly because the amount they gave raised flags to the IRS. (And they raised 7 kids in the meantime.)
Another factor in people giving more in retirement is that many of us come to realize that we don't need or want all the stupid crap and "things" that clutter our lives and on which we may have wasted money when we were younger. It is much more gratifying to me to donate money to help the unemployable people who pick up groceries at the nearby food pantry than it is to buy something I will never use from the online Pampered Chef link my friend sent me last week.
I know many people, retired and otherwise, who give way more than 10% of their time to helping and serving others (including their own family members), and can't even claim a tax deduction for doing so.
DH & I have a Vanguard donor-advised charitable fund and by many standards would be considered "generous" givers, but the folks who so generously give their time to serve others put us to shame.
Good point. I have a friend who only gets Social Security, is on food stamps, works every program she can find, and cannot spare much to give financially. She volunteers her time and helps out whoever whenever she can.
I give to the food pantry, but others spend a lot of time taking the donations to the pantry, packing the bags, handing them out, organizing shelves, etc.
DW and I currently tithe on our income but I have wondered how we will do this in retirement. The Bible teaches to give a tithe of our increase so I assume that when I start taking distributions from my retirement accounts, that I will be given information as to how much of my distribution was cost basis? If so, then I would tithe on the balance. I don't want to be legalistic because giving is suppose to be from the heart, but I have already tithed on the amount I invested. I would be interested in how the rest of you do this.
This is a concept I had not thought about. So if you tithed in earning years on the gross, then you would already have tithed on your contributions to 401k/403b, 50% of social security (unless self employed in which case 100%), potentially part any part of employee contribution to pension. It would be an interesting math equations to determine which part of each of those streams represents new income.
It is hard to tithe 10% if you are in debt. Most folks are in debt.
We have had this conversation, and DH has never felt comfortable tithing 10%, even though I was brought up to believe that we should. We always have given to our church though, and we also contribute to other needs as they are brought to our attention.
When I worked I sent money to an organization I believed in, in order to fulfill the obligation I felt to give. When I retired, I discontinued this. I don't manage a paycheck for myself any more, for one thing. But, I think that giving the way church leaders want us to is very hard for most of us. It is a discipline, and it is hard to discipline oneself. But giving is a good thing, helping us to understand that we can give.
I have never understood why we are to give 10% of our gross though. I would be happy giving 10% of net.
It is hard to tithe 10% if you are in debt. Most folks are in debt.
We have had this conversation, and DH has never felt comfortable tithing 10%, even though I was brought up to believe that we should. We always have given to our church though, and we also contribute to other needs as they are brought to our attention.
When I worked I sent money to an organization I believed in, in order to fulfill the obligation I felt to give. When I retired, I discontinued this. I don't manage a paycheck for myself any more, for one thing. But, I think that giving the way church leaders want us to is very hard for most of us. It is a discipline, and it is hard to discipline oneself. But giving is a good thing, helping us to understand that we can give.
I have never understood why we are to give 10% of our gross though. I would be happy giving 10% of net.
Did anyone ever actually say you should give 10% of gross? Just curious. My parents did, by choice, but I don't know if that was expected. They also didn't give everything to their specific church, but to other charities they felt were deserving.
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