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Forgive me for intruding into what is only your business, but why are you continuing a relationship with someone you think can't trust?
I'm not big on the "trust" thing. So, if I'm going to have any relationship at all, it's going to HAVE to be with someone I don't totally trust. Of course, that means I'm completely prepared for the "worst" to happen.
But, like cousinsal, I find some smugness on the part of more fortunate people that irks me. I come asking real questions about real problems and have it suggested that if I am not able to retire it's simply my own fault. That's in no way helpful (if help was what was intended...).
OK, I think I get it. You did a nice job explaining your point of view--I hope I can do as well trying to explain a different point of view. I'm not always good at putting my thoughts into words, but I'll try.
When people say things like "most people can find a way to retire" or "if you are not able to retire it's usually your own fault" they are not trying to be smug. They are trying to share a vision. A vision that can change your life.
Most, if not all of us, have faced major challenges. We've known that point when a challenge seems impossible. That's also a turning point. You may not want to hear this, but here's a little bit of truth: the losers in this world reach this point and become obsessed with telling total strangers how it's not their fault. The winners reach this point and realize it's pointless to wonder whose fault it is. At this point, winners also realize that once you can acknowledge your own fault in a problem you can also find a solution.
For example, the most challenging problem I had early in my life was that I never imagined I would want to go to college. That wasn't something the kids in Liberty City did. Especially not the girls. So, I never took math courses. I cut school a lot and when I did show up I signed up for classes like "The Black Experience in America" (it was the 60's and my high school was trying to be cool).
Later on, I realized that if I wanted to be successful I would need a college degree. But I knew it was impossible...and "it wasn't my fault." You see, college admissions required advanced algebra and calculus--and I had never even taken the most basic math classes. And I needed scholarships--they had even more requirements that seemed impossible. And, just as challenging--I needed to get through interviews, which meant I needed to develop the habit of speaking and writing like an educated person.
It wasn't my fault that Liberty City was a slum. It wasn't my fault that I went to a loser school in the wrong part of town. It wasn't my fault that my parents were going through rehab and we were broke. It wasn't my fault that "the man" had set things up in the world so that black people didn't have a chance. It wasn't my fault that I didn't realize how important a degree was until I was in my mid 20's, broke, and divorced. It wasn't my fault that I was "too old to redo high school." I spent a lot of time telling people how "it wasn't my fault."
Thank god somebody pointed out that it was my fault. That bad breaks happen to everyone, but everything that happens in my life is at least partially my choice. That's how I finally realized that if I really wanted to go to college I was going to have to find a way to take Algebra I, Algebra II, Geometry and Calculus. It wasn't quick, it wasn't easy and it didn't matter if it wasn't my fault... and the day I realized none of that matters was the day I started becoming a success.
I guess you might think this is bragging. But I see it as being supportive. You asked us to show you the way, and maybe somebody else knows of an easier solution. You could rob a bank, I suppose. Or try to marry someone fabulously wealthy. Or, you could try the approach that worked for me:
The only path I know to success in life is to realize that everything that happens to you is at least partially your fault. Once your only goal is to find a way around the problem, without wasting time feeling sorry for yourself because "it's not my fault", you will find a way to succeed. Often a very creative way, which you will then want to share.
I'm not big on the "trust" thing. So, if I'm going to have any relationship at all, it's going to HAVE to be with someone I don't totally trust. Of course, that means I'm completely prepared for the "worst" to happen.
You can only trust to a point, because we don't really know ANYONE totally, even our closest friends and family. It's surprising what some people will end up doing, people that you NEVER thought could do certain things.
OK, I think I get it. You did a nice job explaining your point of view--I hope I can do as well trying to explain a different point of view. I'm not always good at putting my thoughts into words, but I'll try.
When people say things like "most people can find a way to retire" or "if you are not able to retire it's usually your own fault" they are not trying to be smug. They are trying to share a vision. A vision that can change your life.
Most, if not all of us, have faced major challenges. We've known that point when a challenge seems impossible. That's also a turning point. You may not want to hear this, but here's a little bit of truth: the losers in this world reach this point and become obsessed with telling total strangers how it's not their fault. The winners reach this point and realize it's pointless to wonder whose fault it is. At this point, winners also realize that once you can acknowledge your own fault in a problem you can also find a solution.
For example, the most challenging problem I had early in my life was that I never imagined I would want to go to college. That wasn't something the kids in Liberty City did. Especially not the girls. So, I never took math courses. I cut school a lot and when I did show up I signed up for classes like "The Black Experience in America" (it was the 60's and my high school was trying to be cool).
Later on, I realized that if I wanted to be successful I would need a college degree. But I knew it was impossible...and "it wasn't my fault." You see, college admissions required advanced algebra and calculus--and I had never even taken the most basic math classes. And I needed scholarships--they had even more requirements that seemed impossible. And, just as challenging--I needed to get through interviews, which meant I needed to develop the habit of speaking and writing like an educated person.
It wasn't my fault that Liberty City was a slum. It wasn't my fault that I went to a loser school in the wrong part of town. It wasn't my fault that my parents were going through rehab and we were broke. It wasn't my fault that "the man" had set things up in the world so that black people didn't have a chance. It wasn't my fault that I didn't realize how important a degree was until I was in my mid 20's, broke, and divorced. It wasn't my fault that I was "too old to redo high school." I spent a lot of time telling people how "it wasn't my fault."
Thank god somebody pointed out that it was my fault. That bad breaks happen to everyone, but everything that happens in my life is at least partially my choice. That's how I finally realized that if I really wanted to go to college I was going to have to find a way to take Algebra I, Algebra II, Geometry and Calculus. It wasn't quick, it wasn't easy and it didn't matter if it wasn't my fault... and the day I realized none of that matters was the day I started becoming a success.
I guess you might think this is bragging. But I see it as being supportive. You asked us to show you the way, and maybe somebody else knows of an easier solution. You could rob a bank, I suppose. Or try to marry someone fabulously wealthy. Or, you could try the approach that worked for me:
The only path I know to success in life is to realize that everything that happens to you is at least partially your fault. Once your only goal is to find a way around the problem, without wasting time feeling sorry for yourself because "it's not my fault", you will find a way to succeed. Often a very creative way, which you will then want to share.
I don't agree, of course. I didn't plan to get cancer (very healthy otherwise), and I did not plan to be laid-off (very good worker, but that doesn't mean anything with layoffs), I did not plan for people I love to die - these are things we have NO control over. If you think you have control, you're dreamin'.
I, and others on this board, are not "feeling sorry for ourselves" - we are merely discussing difficulties in retiring. That's it - period. We thought that others would be supportive of each other's difficulties because it's well-known how difficult things are today, financially, for MANY people.
We came to the wrong place - that's all. Read the paper, watch the news, get a clue. It's not "rare" for people to have financial difficulties in this economy. If you think you're helping by telling people "it's your fault", you're also dreamin'. That never works.
And, I think it's very smug to sit there and think that people are "feeling sorry for themselves". It's a judgement that you should not make without knowing a person.
Today, the kids I know of that age (who I work with) have to have several roommates, and still have to pay a HUGE portion of their paychecks to rent. It just isn't the same. Personally, I would live in a bad neighborhood with 10 roommates, if it was me, but not all young people want to do that. And, it's kind of dangerous.
And there in lies a decision.
And as far as a huge portion of their paychecks to rent --- do they not have a chance to make more money someplace else or does it go back to decisions they made in high school or college that put them in their current paycheck situation? But let's say, they recognized those school decisions may have been wrong, can they move to a state where rents are cheaper, go back to school part time to better themselves financially, spend less on other things to pay the higher rent? If they don't want to or they are afraid to, you can't make them, but when they get to be 60 years old will these be the people moaning about how they can't afford to retire while their friends, who in their 20s and early 30s moved to a cheaper state, took classes after work, went into the military to get their education benefit, majored in something in college that promised more pay, put up with multiple roommates or living in a less than stellar neighborhood, put off motherhood for a few years, etc., be coasting to retirement?
You know, people make decisions all the time that are not based on money, but what they think is the right thing to do for themselves and others, and there is nothing wrong with that as long as they recognize that money issues can't re-enter the picture when they turn 60, if it was not the basis of their life decisions when they were 16, 20, 30 and 40.
And as far as a huge portion of their paychecks to rent --- do they not have a chance to make more money someplace else or does it go back to decisions they made in high school or college that put them in their current paycheck situation? But let's say, they recognized those school decisions may have been wrong, can they move to a state where rents are cheaper, go back to school part time to better themselves financially, spend less on other things to pay the higher rent? If they don't want to or they are afraid to, you can't make them, but when they get to be 60 years old will these be the people moaning about how they can't afford to retire while their friends, who in their 20s and early 30s moved to a cheaper state, took classes after work, went into the military to get their education benefit, majored in something in college that promised more pay, put up with multiple roommates or living in a less than stellar neighborhood, put off motherhood for a few years, etc., be coasting to retirement?
You know, people make decisions all the time that are not based on money, but what they think is the right thing to do for themselves and others, and there is nothing wrong with that as long as they recognize that money issues can't re-enter the picture when they turn 60, if it was not the basis of their life decisions when they were 16, 20, 30 and 40.
Well, the kids are interested in scientific research (I'm a lab manager), and this is the best place to do it - in fact, our institution is supposedly the best place in the U.S. for research.
But, yes, they are paid little when they begin - less than me, and I have only a B.A. - they are PhD's. But, they're not going to find something better in a cheaper area, unless they want to do something else, which they don't. They're doing something they love. And, they work long hours. Eventually, they may become world-renowned scientists, like our boss and make decent money. Anyone starting out is going to make less money than someone with years of experience, in any field.
My personal idea is that there should be affordable housing for ALL, no matter your salary. But, we all have to pay the same rent whether we make $20K or $100K. As they say, "we all buy the same loaf of bread" - the costs do not go down because you don't make good money. But, to me, housing should always be available at a reasonable cost. I guess that's a radical idea. I always thought that we could have housing for those who make $200K, those who make $50K, those who make $20K, etc. But, unless you are really poor and get help, you cannot find housing for a reasonable cost.
And, most jobs in the U.S. do not pay all that well - the median household income is only $45K - so half of households make even less. We can't all be CEO's. And, it takes time in a career to move up and make better money. And, money today does not buy as much as money in the past. Our buying power has decreased for decades. As I said, when I got out of college making MINIMUM wage, I had a nice apartment with one roommate. Can't do that today. So, obviously, things have changed.
Well I did not buy my first property with money from my parents - the owner financed it and I was working. The reason I was living with my parent is that I was laid off in the oil bust of the early 1980s (I lost everything - which wasn't much but was all I had). I never asked my parents for money. My father was incredibly frugal. He did let me use his gas card sometimes, paid for little things here and there and they didn't charge me rent.
The point I was trying to make is that I was willing to make sacrifices most people would never consider. Every time I clean a tenant's nasty toilet or a refrigerator that has things growing, I think about it - and I am glad that I have the gumption. I also did most of the handyman work on the properties until a few years ago. I have always done most of the painting; I find that theraputic.
Of course something could happen, someone could sue me, I could drop dead tomorrow, etc. So I am not bragging, I am just saying you have to be a little weird to the mainstream in order to get ahead.
It's not "rare" for people to have financial difficulties in this economy. If you think you're helping by telling people "it's your fault", you're also dreamin'. That never works.
Actually, I don't think it's at all rare for people to have financial difficulties--in this economy, or in any economy. As I noted before, I certainly had financial difficulties, as did most people I know. But if the solution that worked for me does not appeal to you, that's cool. There are many pathways to success. I hope you find yours.
Well I did not buy my first property with money from my parents - the owner financed it and I was working. The reason I was living with my parent is that I was laid off in the oil bust of the early 1980s (I lost everything - which wasn't much but was all I had). I never asked my parents for money. My father was incredibly frugal. He did let me use his gas card sometimes, paid for little things here and there and they didn't charge me rent.
The point I was trying to make is that I was willing to make sacrifices most people would never consider. Every time I clean a tenant's nasty toilet or a refrigerator that has things growing, I think about it - and I am glad that I have the gumption. I also did most of the handyman work on the properties until a few years ago. I have always done most of the painting; I find that theraputic.
Of course something could happen, someone could sue me, I could drop dead tomorrow, etc. So I am not bragging, I am just saying you have to be a little weird to the mainstream in order to get ahead.
Neither of us were trust-fund babies.
To us; we see what we have done as: making sacrifices; however for whatever reason others read this and to their ears they hear gloating.
I fail to see the gloating, and I have repeatedly apologized when others hear gloating in my words. Yet it is not my intent. I trust that such is not your intent either. Yet as the thread goes on, other people continue to read it as gloating.
Perhaps as optimists, we see the growing Net Worth and future financial stability and we fail to focus on the 'bad'. Perhaps it is our 'rose-coloured' glasses that allows us to prosper, while so many around us obviously are wailing in despair.
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