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-- Point entirely conceeded on the design. Wow. Ugly, cheap, generic, unconnected to surrounding architecture
-- Agreed that if you want a handout that comes with strings, but I think PVD is looking to pull the wrong strings. Use the leverage to improve the design, for example, not to carry a union's water for what is ultimately a relatively small matter relative to the larger public policy concerns.
Absolutely agree on using leverage to improve design, and to maybe get a couple of gimmes from TPC, like carving out some public space or having them pay for pocket parks around their hotel -- something to benefit the community.
I think the better way to solve the labor issue is simple: raise the minimum wage.
One thing that stands out to me in all of this dialog is the fact that it's the same names - the same developers, the same politicians, the same people that make decisions for the rest of the city.
For my part, I am giving a long, hard look at relocation to Tampa, FL. My wife hails from there; I've been around the northeast all of my life and PVD for the last 10. In comparing the 2 (just for the sake of discussion), here's what stands out:
-Tampa, as a city, is gaining serious horsepower with outside investors and developers, along with a billionaire of its very own who is single-handedly spurring development in its downtown;
-When companies announce expansions/hiring booms, it's not for 5 or 7 new jobs - its hundreds;
-Just this week a startup from the West Coast announced they are building their manufacturing center there;
-There is a collective effort by Tampa and the surrounding counties' EDCs to work together to attract out-of-state companies and investors.
The emphasis I am trying to draw here is out of state. It is a city that WANTS people from elsewhere, that is savvy enough to do the wheeling and dealing to bring in out-of-staters - both companies and people.
This has always bothered me about Providence/Rhode Island in general. Granted, there's some element of the New England attitude at play that doesn't warm up to outsiders very quickly. But Providence goes beyond that, and generally doesn't even open its sleepy eyes wide enough to know that the locals aren't getting it done, and doesn't even attempt to attract outside business and dollars unless it comes walking into the state on its own.
There was a great article recently where Gov. Scott of Florida specifically scheduled a trip AND press conference in downtown Hartford to announce how hard he was working to help CT companies relocate to tax-friendly FL. Epic trolling, for sure, but how nice to see a state leader look beyond its borders.
No matter how much the economy bounces back (and BTW, given the stunning number of people we know who have left the state for greener pastures, I can all but guarantee you those employment numbers reflect people who have left or stopped looking entirely), until Rhode Island's leaders and citizens shake off this stupid "local first" approach and think like visionaries, nothing will change. Why shouldn't GE re-locate here? Oh, right, because our corporate tax rate is barely competitive, and our best and brightest leave for CA, New York and elsewhere.
My wife came here to work for Brown, but after seeing some of the brightest minds I've ever met pack up and leave the place in droves, it makes me wonder who is going to be left. Some low-life with "Townie Pride" pasted all over his back bumper, most likely.
Personally I would not want to move to Florida, but Lav has some points.
On the point about PVD being not just unwelcoming, but not even aware of what they are missing, I can second that. My wife is now in the professional midst of 'the Establishment' in downtown Providence, and as an out-of-stater it was not at all easy to get accepted. But beyond the trouble finding a a job, it constantly dismays her how little knowledge people in PVD have of how things are done in other states -- moreso, how little they even care. Almost everyone in 'the system' is from here, or has lived here a long time; the smart and ambitious ones who land a job that brings them from out of state to RI, move on fairly quickly.
RI courts, for example, are 15 or more years behind most states in making use of electronic schedules, documents and filings, etc, and in ways that mean lawyers here have to make far more physical trips to courthouses and spend much more time sitting in courtrooms waiting for things to happen than in most states. Incredibly inefficient. Many lawyers here don't even have a feel for how utterly out of the norm RI is, most don't seem particularly motivated to look outside now and then to see if other states have any good ideas, or even if they do, figure 'it can't be done _here_' and have resigned themselves to the idea that everything sucks in RI and it always will, so why bother. Those who have never left RI find it hard to realize that MOST PLACES ARE NOT LIKE THAT!
On schools, too, my wife was involved in some of the political discussions around Gist's reform and testing initiative. She was amazed how often parents at town hall meetings said flat out that they didn't care how RI compared to other states, not even to Massachusetts schools a few miles away. They were a 3rd generation resident of Bristol and they hoped their kids stayed in Bristol and Bristol H.S. was just fine compared to other RI towns so why did it matter what schools do in Attleboro or Nashua or Tampa? Utterly unable to make the connection that even if -- IF -- their kids never want to move out of Bristol, if businesses won't stay and won't come to RI because of a low-skill worforce, their kids may be nearby but they will be unemployed and poor.
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^There's some truth to that but of course it is not 100% across the board, and not limited strictly to Rhode Island. That same provincial attitude is prevalent in much of Mass. as well.
There is some irony in the way many natives like to complain about the status quo, but vomit disdainfully when someone with out of state experience reports how things work elsewhere and suggests that perhaps Rhode Island could adopt successful practices to make things better here. Outsiders trying to change the state! The nerve!
I was finding it hard to express my opinion on Lavs and neguy's posts, but then ormari pretty much said it for me. I'm sympathetic to some of those criticisms, but they also ironically reflect the other side of the same coin they're complaining about -- that Rhode Island is the only place doing things a certain way.
This is a bit of a tangent, but I had an epiphany the other day about school performance. You hear a lot around here that Rhode Island's schools underperform, and I've always been suspicious of that. I've always thought school performance is directly tied to income levels. It's true that, say, Massachusetts schools (the best in the country) do better at the same income levels, though. So why are Rhody's test scores worse? People who complain about it seem to be implying that both our students and teachers are simply stupider or lazier or just somehow worse than those in other states, which doesn't seem to add up.
I may have hit upon the answer when I was thinking about some of the things I love about Rhode Island. I live in East Greenwich, the highest-income town in the state (virtually tied with Jamestown). CEOs live here. There's a new subdivision under construction where they won't let you build a house with less than a three-car garage. And where do I live in East Greenwich? On a crappy-looking street with overgrown grass, where some houses are barely larger than my old Queens apartment, where one guy clearly hasn't painted his house since probably the 1970s, where people park their pickups festooned with Peeing Calvin stickers on the lawn. And that's hardly the worst of it! There are neighborhoods where 80 percent of the real estate is ancient subdivided houses, many of which don't look like they're particularly well maintained. There are plenty of apartments that are affordable to people with all sorts of working-class jobs.
Does that sound like a bad thing to you? If so, your mind works very differently than mine. I love that these are the neighborhoods and housing opportunities available in Rhode Island's wealthiest town. You can have a 6,000-square foot house on four wooded acres, or you can have a rickety studio apartment steps from Main Street. Around the corner from me, there's a shack that looks like it's falling down, and a block away, there's a house with a driveway the length of half a football field leading to a house whose square footage looks like it could compete with one of the smaller Newport mansions.
Pretty much anyone can live in East Greenwich. And pretty much anyone can send their kids to school in East Greenwich. Now, what about Winchester, Massachusetts? Well, if you've got $500,000, there's a 1,400-square-foot house for sale right now -- photos show a living room that's even smaller than mine, which I didn't think was possible, and other rooms that need serious renovations -- but other than that, the gate's closed. My point is that Rhode Island towns may average the same income as Massachusetts towns but have a far greater diversity of income. And because someone making $1 million a year probably isn't going to have kids who perform better in school than someone making $250,000 a year, but someone making $45,000 a year is likely to have kids who perform worse, it's easy to see how that income diversity hurts school performance if that performance is based on average income level.
Now that I'm done with that, I will add just this: I have not found the stereotype that Rhode Islanders are insular and slow to warm to outsiders to be particularly true. Sure, "I know a guy" and whatnot, but I've had a way easier time meeting and developing connections to people here than I ever did in New York. It's funny because New York is Transplant City, and yet New Yorkers -- even the transplants -- are too busy and too cool for you and are not interested in what you have to offer. They've got their life and are going to live it -- you're just in their way. Rhode Islanders -- and this is going to be tough for people who haven't spent much time in New York to understand -- are much friendlier, like a hundred times friendlier. And that applies on a professional as well as personal level. There are great opportunities here. I acknowledge that it may be tougher here to get, say, a plumbing job. I imagine that's where the insular attitude is going to hurt. But to be blunt, more plumbers aren't going to bring this state to the next level.
^There's some truth to that but of course it is not 100% across the board, and not limited strictly to Rhode Island. That same provincial attitude is prevalent in much of Mass. as well.
There is some irony in the way many natives like to complain about the status quo, but vomit disdainfully when someone with out of state experience reports how things work elsewhere and suggests that perhaps Rhode Island could adopt successful practices to make things better here. Outsiders trying to change the state! The nerve!
What I think you are missing is that many of the negative aspects of the state have been promulgated by outsiders being brought in on winning contracts- for example, an ugly proposed building was brought up. How many of the recent buildings downtown have been designed by RI based architects? How many school dept. heads have been Rhode Islanders? A lack of understanding of the history of the state and how things work here impede getting anything done. And it also affects what is good about the area since "outsiders" don't know this until they've been around a while.
Apathy, for example, in the early 1960s prevented the city of Providence from being architecturally destroyed as was the fate of poor Pawtucket- a once great & prosperous city destroyed by I95.
I agree that insider politics and apathy as well as lack of available funding have also very negatively impacted how the state operates. Many systems are well behind the times. I think what we need is more locals stepping up to the plate with real vision. This is what was admired about Buddy Cianci- unfortunately his negative aspects survive him.
Last edited by Hollytree; 08-23-2015 at 09:16 AM..
I left Rhode Island 30 years ago, so I really don't have any irons in the fire except for the fact that I really love RI. We still have family and friends and my daughters spend their summers along with my wife in Chepachet.
My opinion is that shortly before I left things were changing in little Rhody as far as our industrial, textile, and jewelry base go. Even EB hit the skids not soon after my departure. AT Cross, Bostich, Brown and Sharpe.......you get the drift.
Unless I am mistaken we were heavy in blue collar jobs not that long ago.
It has only been about thirty years and for some city's and states it takes a life time to reinvent themselves in order to become prosperous again.
In todays day and age incentives and tax wavers are the new thieves in the night.
I have no quick fixes other than the city and state pension programs need to be fixed first. They were talking this 20 years ago...............all new hires could have come under this program and let those in be grandfathered.
Even the federal government switched to this in 1985.
Old ways are hard to change......................and maybe for RI to turn around we need a few outsiders to shake things up
Oh and as far as East Greenwich..................I sure can remember the fishing village feel to those homes below Main Street that they now call Hill and Harbor District.
Like my memories of East Greenwich I remember shopping in the sixties with my mom in downtown Providence before it's downturn.............and at the same time during the mid to late seventy's I remember my buddies brother-in-law getting a job for a soon to be monster of a school, Johnson and Wales.
What I think you are missing is that many of the negative aspects of the state have been promulgated by outsiders being brought in on winning contracts- for example, an ugly proposed building was brought up. How many of the recent buildings downtown have been designed by RI based architects?
I would ask, what do you call recent?
Blue Cross & Blue Shield of Rhode Island Headquarters, architectural firm, SMNA, is located in Boston and Providence.
The Project Architect for Providence Place, which billed at $450m, was Friedrich St.Florian, a Rhode Islander whose practice is also located here. He also designed the skybridge at PPM.
The I-Way was designed by William D. Warner, who was also a Rhode Island and whose worldwide affairs were conducted in Exeter.
The Robinson Green Beretta Corporation of Providence were architects for the Interlink, the RI School for the Deaf, Johnson & Wales University Hospitality Center in Cranston, a RI College residence hall, too. and the State Police HQ in Scituate.
So it's not an inconsiderable body of work by Rhode Island architects, and this is apart from other work, such as custom residences and restoration of old mills into commercial spaces and residence.
Quote:
How many school dept. heads have been Rhode Islanders? A lack of understanding of the history of the state and how things work here impede getting anything done. And it also affects what is good about the area since "outsiders" don't know this until they've been around a while.
True, but they also carry the baggage of having done business in Rhode Island or worked for the state, which has, I think, a corrosive effect. And, in my experience, the talent pool in Rhode Island is pretty shallow.
I like Providence Place, the mall & the skybridge. I don't like the Waterplace Towers which were a project of Intercontinental RE Corp and a Boston based architect, ADD Inc. These tend to dominate the downtown and set up a bad precedent in my opinion.
In my experience, the talent pool in RI is far from shallow.
As far as the school dept heads, they make a ton of money, work 2 years, accomplish little, and leave for more money elsewhere. Kind of like some University presidents.
Last edited by Hollytree; 08-23-2015 at 01:36 PM..
This topic has dramatically changed. I really don't think anyone living in RI cares who designs a building as much as they would worship the ground a legitimate company walks on if they brought jobs of any nature in large numbers to RI.
This article below no matter what your feelings are towards it, are right on the mark. It notes the fact that RI was doomed before the recent bust........which is Rhode Islands real problem.
No matter how you cut it, Rhode Island used to be a manufacturing state, and like Detroit it is going to need time to steer in a new direction. I don't think my family or friends care if locals or out of staters can bring about change.
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