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There isn't a good reason why a thriving downtown could not have bustling bookstores, kitchen shops, and clothiers without a mall. Maybe parking is a reason, but that could be resolved. In fact our downtown does have bookstores and clothiers though they might not be bustling...
Regardless if the mall continues as is or gets (partially) redeveloped into housing or something else, the reality is that as a physical barrier it will continue to divide the city, though frankly the interstate highway does a pretty good job of that on its own.
Those of us who were around when the mall first came about, can tell you that downtown retail was already DEAD as a coffin. The PPM brought retail back to the city. Due to current demographics and trends I don't see the mall making it in the long term or any justification to continue with the corporate welfare, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking Westminster St. is the future Newbury St. and that you folks only need the "mall" to get out of the way.
Those of us who were around when the mall first came about, can tell you that downtown retail was already DEAD as a coffin. The PPM brought retail back to the city. Due to current demographics and trends I don't see the mall making it in the long term or any justification to continue with the corporate welfare, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking Westminster St. is the future Newbury St. and that you folks only need the "mall" to get out of the way.
Has anyone tried to argue that this is the case?
I lived in Providence for a few years during the mall's initial decade. Downtown retail in Providence is noticeably better today than it was in 1999 or even 2009. The mall functions as an Island (by design) and I don't think it played a significant role one way or another in how downtown retail has changed in the city beyond Francis St. over the last 2 decades. Losing the mall certainly wouldn't hurt downtown retail (outside of the mall's tenants, obviously) in Providence and even if 1% of the mall's retailers relocated to a handful of storefronts in the city center, it would be a win for downtown retail.
I hope they can keep the Apple store. We need that one.
If they stick to their business model, they'll go a shopping center or mall in the 'burbs. Downtown locations tend to be "Flagships" and they're few and far between. Warwick Mall and/or Patriot Place seem like likely candidates.
Those of us who were around when the mall first came about, can tell you that downtown retail was already DEAD as a coffin. The PPM brought retail back to the city. Due to current demographics and trends I don't see the mall making it in the long term or any justification to continue with the corporate welfare, but let's not kid ourselves into thinking Westminster St. is the future Newbury St. and that you folks only need the "mall" to get out of the way.
We did lose Dress Barn downtown though. Might not mean much to you, but it was bigger than any clothing store currently downtown. Now it's all very small, niche stuff
I lived in Providence for a few years during the mall's initial decade. Downtown retail in Providence is noticeably better today than it was in 1999 or even 2009. The mall functions as an Island (by design) and I don't think it played a significant role one way or another in how downtown retail has changed in the city beyond Francis St. over the last 2 decades. Losing the mall certainly wouldn't hurt downtown retail (outside of the mall's tenants, obviously) in Providence and even if 1% of the mall's retailers relocated to a handful of storefronts in the city center, it would be a win for downtown retail.
Where is all this new retail that you speak of? Even if there was, wouldn't that kind of prove the point that the mall had no adverse affect on downtown? And what do you mean it cuts off downtown from Federal Hill? Are you confusing the mall with the convention/civic center??? All I see it did was beautify the end of downtown it's located in and (along with the Waterfire) spur new interest and reinvestment elsewhere (like you see on Westminster St.). And NO, it would not be a "win" for downtown retail if downtown Providence lost 99% of the mall's retailers.
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Originally Posted by lrfox
If they stick to their business model, they'll go a shopping center or mall in the 'burbs. Downtown locations tend to be "Flagships" and they're few and far between. Warwick Mall and/or Patriot Place seem like likely candidates.
Highly doubt it. Patriot Place is getting too close to South Shore Plaza (creating overlap there), and Warwick Mall is dying a slow death. Only place I can see Apple Store going is Garden City.
Where is all this new retail that you speak of? Even if there was, wouldn't that kind of prove the point that the mall had no adverse affect on downtown? And what do you mean it cuts off downtown from Federal Hill? Are you confusing the mall with the convention/civic center??? All I see it did was beautify the end of downtown it's located in and (along with the Waterfire) spur new interest and reinvestment elsewhere (like you see on Westminster St.). And NO, it would not be a "win" for downtown retail if downtown Providence lost 99% of the mall's retailers.
I don't think it's all that hard to see the increase in small, locally owned business (and a few national chains) along and just off of Westminster. Lots of new (at least in the past 20 years) little shops and restaurants. A new grocery store is opening (or just opened) this fall. The Arcade also underwent a renovation ten years ago and has several retail tenants. It's not what I would call "booming," but it's exactly what I said it was - better off than it was ~20 or so years ago.
I'm not in the "The mall killed downtown retail!" camp and never have been. But I also don't think the increase in small, locally owned retail shops and restaurants is really attributable to the mall. They serve different demographics. It's not like the mall is funneling foot traffic into the downtown area - most people arrive and leave by car without setting foot outside of the mall/hotel/arena/convention center complex. The mall deserves partial credit for some of the large scale development around the station (as does the station itself), but I think that influence is no longer a real factor as it's not the destination it once was and likely never will be. And beauty? Eh, that's in the eye of the beholder. To me, it's a massive, hulking post modernist box that forms a major physical barrier (yes, mostly to Smith Hill and not Federal Hill - I misspoke) in addition to I-95. It would be great to see it leveled redeveloped at a more human scale with better connectivity to both downtown and Smith Hill.
I really do think the loss of the mall's retail would have a negligible impact on downtown and the businesses there. Again, there's little overlap between mall shoppers and pedestrian traffic downtown. It may have been a draw for hotel and convention guests in the earlier days, but times have changed and it's not the attraction it once was.
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Highly doubt it. Patriot Place is getting too close to South Shore Plaza (creating overlap there), and Warwick Mall is dying a slow death. Only place I can see Apple Store going is Garden City.
Garden City makes a lot of sense - probably the most. Though I don't think Patriot Place is too close to S. Shore Plaza, especially if Providence Place goes under. Derby Street and Legacy Place are closer to S. Shore than Patriot Place and both have Apple Stores. If Providence lost its store and Apple didn't move to Garden City or Warwick, Patriot Place could easily support one between much of Metro Providence as well as the surrounding 495/95 suburbs.
I don't think it's all that hard to see the increase in small, locally owned business (and a few national chains) along and just off of Westminster. Lots of new (at least in the past 20 years) little shops and restaurants. A new grocery store is opening (or just opened) this fall. The Arcade also underwent a renovation ten years ago and has several retail tenants. It's not what I would call "booming," but it's exactly what I said it was - better off than it was ~20 or so years ago.
OK so that new grocery store. All the other newer stuff I can think of is restaurants, bars and clubs. Either way, main point is the mall didn't hurt downtown and only brought in new businesses that wouldn't have arrived otherwise. Apple Store would have never set up a street level shop in Providence. That's just not their market. Ditto Macy's or 99% of what's else in there.
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Originally Posted by lrfox
I'm not in the "The mall killed downtown retail!" camp and never have been. But I also don't think the increase in small, locally owned retail shops and restaurants is really attributable to the mall. They serve different demographics. It's not like the mall is funneling foot traffic into the downtown area - most people arrive and leave by car without setting foot outside of the mall/hotel/arena/convention center complex. The mall deserves partial credit for some of the large scale development around the station (as does the station itself), but I think that influence is no longer a real factor as it's not the destination it once was and likely never will be. And beauty? Eh, that's in the eye of the beholder. To me, it's a massive, hulking post modernist box that forms a major physical barrier (yes, mostly to Smith Hill and not Federal Hill - I misspoke) in addition to I-95. It would be great to see it leveled redeveloped at a more human scale with better connectivity to both downtown and Smith Hill.
It "completed" downtown, creating a buffer between downtown and the highway. It far beats the vacant lot/field that previously separated the two, much nicer look/feel today. And I don't understand what you mean by it cutting off Smith Hill, when it was even more cut off before. You can blame the construction of 95 all you want, but it got slightly better with the PPM. Could it be improved, I suppose.
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Originally Posted by lrfox
I really do think the loss of the mall's retail would have a negligible impact on downtown and the businesses there. Again, there's little overlap between mall shoppers and pedestrian traffic downtown. It may have been a draw for hotel and convention guests in the earlier days, but times have changed and it's not the attraction it once was.
Well at least think about all the jobs and sales tax revenue the mall brings in, that still remain and will be forever lost. I'm firmly in the camp who is convinced that the mall fully served its purpose for the past 20 years, but am now torn on whether it should be given incentives to carry on (while being appropriately repurposed to mixed use ie. the Cambridgeside) or just ending the corporate welfare altogether and letting the free market (of 2022) determine its fate.
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Originally Posted by lrfox
Garden City makes a lot of sense - probably the most. Though I don't think Patriot Place is too close st to S. Shore Plaza, especially if Providence Place goes under. Derby Street and Legacy Place are closer to S. Shore than Patriot Place and both have Apple Stores. If Providence lost its store and Apple didn't move to Garden City or Warwick, Patriot Place could easily support one between much of Metro Providence as well as the surrounding 495/95 suburbs.
I wasn't even thinking of Legacy Place, did not even realize that was there. In that case, Patriot Place would DEFINITELY create overlap in that area while leaving RI poorly served. Apple knows its market very well, and carefully places its stores as not to cut into each others' market share.
They are pushing for another 20 years of tax breaks, after nearly skating for free the past 20. The PPM is looking to pay $4.5 million/year, when their bill should be around $25 million. Until now, they have only paid $1 million/year in property taxes. It sounds like if they don't come to something with the city, their death is all but certain. Current attitude of Elorza and city "leaders", is that Providence absolutely CANNOT afford to have the mall go under. But will even a sweetheart deal like this prevent its demise?
Providence Place mall could get two more decades of tax breaks from city leaders
I can remember when talk first started about the mall being built, I thought what could be worse than a high risk mall constructed so close to Emerald Square and the Warwick Mall. No where in the entire nation was an inner city mall even being considered. I remember standing in line, behind a famous news reporter to sign a petition (located at the Warwick Mall) letting politicians know we were against it, this was the primary reason many of us voted for Lincoln Almond. After he was elected, he did an about face, and changed his mind, mysteriously. What made the mall's proposal even more outlandish, was that it was proposed as an "upscale" mall. Meaning, more closely related to Copley Place, or the Chestnut Hill Mall.
After the mall was built it was truly beautiful, with the best assortment of stores. At the time it had New England's only Nordstrom. It had everything, 18 movie theaters, and an incredible assortment of restaurants, UNO's, Fire and Ice, Joe's American Bar & Grill, a Fondue Place, including the states only Cheesecake Factory, and P. F. Chang's. Nordstrom now gone was replaced by New England's only Boscov's.
Since the mall was opened in 1999, the Swansea Mall, and the Silver City Galleria have closed. The Emerald Square Mall is now classified as distressed, on life support. PPM no longer has three anchors, the Lord & Taylor transitioned to JC Penney which was really too close to other JC Penney's in Attleboro and Warwick. This location would have been perfect for a Primark which Providence would have been an ideal market for, instead it was imploded making for valuable parking.
What I've noticed about PPM, is that it seems to be more local college students, and people of color shopping. They aren't just window shopping either, they seem to be buying. The busy time period is at night, particularly weekends. The Warwick Mall seems to be more "white" shoppers. Fortunately, the PPM restaurants seem to be bustling, again, mostly at night.
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Originally Posted by lrfox
Curious is to what locals feel about the bold?
Malls in general are dying. Both Cambridgeside and Copley Place up here have removed entire floors of retail and replaced them with offices (Cambridgeside is actively redeveloping, but retail remains a component). Maybe Providence Place can do something similar?
I used to think that the city needed Providence Place to thrive. But over the years, I've changed my tune. For starters, even when the mall was at its peak, it didn't really funnel people out into the downtown area. Even the Francis St. retail spaces have struggled. Most foot traffic leaving the mall is heading to the Omni, Convention Center, or Dunk/Amica via the enclosed walkways. Otherwise people go from their car to the mall, and back to the car. And it's a major physical barrier between downtown and parts of Smith Hill and Federal Hill - the walkway along the river is not exactly inviting or intuitive. I also wonder what the impact of the mall is on downtown retail. I don't think most of the mall's stores would have standalone spaces in downtown (it's mostly suburban retail), but it wouldn't take a whole lot to really make a difference in terms of foot traffic downtown.
I'm not sure how often the people who live/work in the area utilize the mall anymore, but I haven't been in years (and I've spent a lot of time in PVD). Maybe it's time to let the market determine what happens with it?
I'm glad Elorza has come to his senses and realized that PPM is very important to the city, PPM is a state institution now, fortunately, it is not in a state of distress as with the Emerald Square Mall, and may out survive it. It used to be, the malls that were holding on pretty well, would be the regions largest mall, the South Shore Plaza (it was originally a "plaza" converted to a mall), the Burlington Mall, the Outlets at Wrentham Village, but I've noticed even these shopping centers have empty stores. Without a doubt, I think PPM paying $4.5M in taxes, plus any sales taxes incurred from shoppers is better than nothing.
I'm glad Elorza has come to his senses and realized that PPM is very important to the city, PPM is a state institution now, fortunately, it is not in a state of distress as with the Emerald Square Mall, and may out survive it. It used to be, the malls that were holding on pretty well, would be the regions largest mall, the South Shore Plaza (it was originally a "plaza" converted to a mall), the Burlington Mall, the Outlets at Wrentham Village, but I've noticed even these shopping centers have empty stores. Without a doubt, I think PPM paying $4.5M in taxes, plus any sales taxes incurred from shoppers is better than nothing.
I think we had a serious glut of malls in the region for a while. I grew up near Fall River, so within about 30 minutes we had Silver City, Westgate, North Dartmouth, Swansea, Providence Place, and South Shore Plaza. A few more were just outside of that radius (Warwick, Hanover, Emerald Square, etc.). It just wasn't sustainable, hence the death of Swansea, Silver City, and the others that are on life support (Emerald Square, Warwick, etc.). Dartmouth is surprisingly bucking the trend.
The tax revenue is good, and as Massnative71 said, the jobs are also extremely helpful. Hopefully the mall has what it takes to survive with minimal intervention.
How is Boscov's doing at PPM? It's been there 3 or 4 years now? At least it's holding on thru a pandrmic, right?
Any of you like shoping there for any particular
or any unique items? Prices are reasonable?
Do they adverise on local tv and radio, in the Projo occasionally?
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