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Old 12-23-2015, 07:51 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX sucks
373 posts, read 298,432 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NORVA View Post
Disagree, flags on official state items, yes. Statues? No. Statues are memorials of the past for good or bad. This is not the same as the state of sc having the flag up on state grounds.

Plus, almost all of the CSA generals were USMA graduates and officers in the US Army. They helped make this countries military the best in the world.
CSA generals committed TREASON. Please read Article III section 3 of the Constitution.
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Old 12-23-2015, 11:15 PM
 
57,922 posts, read 50,481,192 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NORVA View Post
Disagree, flags on official state items, yes. Statues? No. Statues are memorials of the past for good or bad. This is not the same as the state of sc having the flag up on state grounds.

Plus, almost all of the CSA generals were USMA graduates and officers in the US Army. They helped make this countries military the best in the world.
The good or bad part. Why should we commemorate those who fought on the side of a cause that desired to continue slavery?

And any soldier that came out of the USMA who fought for the CSA, they are traitors. This is why. They were sworn to fight for USA. The CSA was an enemy combatant, and according to the Constitution, Lee is a traitor.
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Old 12-25-2015, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Behind You!
1,954 posts, read 3,839,249 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NORVA View Post
Plus, almost all of the CSA generals were USMA graduates and officers in the US Army. They helped make this countries military the best in the world.
That's true, but they also turned traitor and Defected to a defacto "country" and fought against "their" own military killing other Americans who actually wanted to be part of America. I'm big into history and better or worse they are and should always be part of it, but what if a huge chunk of current Military did the exact same thing? They would be Domestic Terrorists, they would be the enemy of all, hunted and put to death for treason. They would NOT have statues erected just because they did something big, big doesn't equal good.
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Old 12-29-2015, 06:02 AM
 
495 posts, read 265,222 times
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Isn't St. Paul's Episcopal removing most of the CSA imagery in their sanctuary? The 'stations of the confederacy"?
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Old 12-30-2015, 04:34 PM
 
1,021 posts, read 2,041,265 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ncoflin View Post
I genuinely am curious to the pulse of the city and its leadership. As many of you may know New Orleans City Council have voted "yes" on their mayor's proposal to remove several prominent statues dedicated to Confederate Leaders throughout New Orleans. The four slated for removal are of General Lee, Jefferson Davis, General Beauregard, and one erected to the Battle of Liberty Place. I am personally opposed to the removal of these statues and am far from some type of rebel flag enthusiast who will swear up and down the Civil War had almost nothing to do with slavery. I'm really quite the opposite. I am just passionate about history, and feel these figures and monuments dedicated in the late 19th and very early 20th century are important to the city...for better or worse. The monuments themselves are steeped in the history of the city being well known landmarks at this point...regardless of who they are dedicated to. I do personally think it would be nice for cities such as NO and RVA both to add MORE monuments (such as the more recent addition of Arthur Ashe to Monument Ave) in an effort to reflect the diversity of the city and show their history is much more than just being former Confederate strongholds. However I really don't want this to turn into a debate thread about what the Civil War was fought over or if these statues in New Orleans should stay or go...

My question is: Does this news story get a lot of coverage in Richmond due to the amount of prominent historical monuments dedicated to Confederate figures located there? Do you foresee a similar measure passing for the removal of the Richmond statues as the one recently passed in New Orleans?

Anytime I go to Richmond I always remark on the beauty of Monument Avenue. It is ironically beautiful to me in a way to see the diverse groups of young people who congregate in the grass near the Lee statue in modern times. I would hate to see these Richmond monuments removed...even more so than the ones in New Orleans because I have a much higher connection and affinity with the RVA area. I know sporadically these statues on Monument Ave have been vandalized, but I have yet to hear any serious calls for removal of them altogether. Not being a local, I just wonder if there is serious talk on the streets amongst locals.
In my opinion (for whatever that's worth) the statues on Monument Avenue will stand. Virginia is very much unlike Louisiana and you can tell that from the tenor of this thread. In a thread from a City-Data forum in the Deep South or on Current Events or History, you wouldn't be able to go two pages without some off topic rant about state's rights, my great-grandfather's pride, Michael Brown, murders in Chicago, etc. etc. Despite having the capital of the Confederacy, Jim Crow segregation, and Massive Resistance, the state of Virginia has never lent itself to the type of neo-Confederate extremism you see deeper in the South. As a result, while racism still exists I think there are more amicable race relations in the Upper South of the type that fosters both sides actually listening to one another. Civil discussion steeped in reason and fact (like with what is going on in this forum) tend to lead to compromise.

For that reason, I agree with your assertion that more monuments will be added in the future. If it wasn't for the statue of Jefferson Davis, the case could be made by supporters of the earlier statues that Monument Avenue honored great military leaders of Virginia (all of whom attended West Point) who served in the US Army before turncoating to the Confederacy. Matthew Fontaine Maury was an eclectic sort of thinker and although his approach was misguided, actually tried to rid the United States of slavery prior to the Civil War. Lee was a founder of Washington & Lee University and Maury was instrumental in the founding of Virginia Tech; this could be used by supporters to further downplay their roles in the Confederacy.

I would advocate removing the Jefferson Davis statue from Monument Avenue (put it in or near where he's buried in Richmond, maybe?) due to his lack of any sort of redeemable qualities and not even being a native Virginian. I think most places not in lockstep with neo-Confederates are removing the name and likeness of Jefferson Davis anyway in the instances where they can; this includes renaming Jefferson Davis Highway in Virginia. I would replace the Davis statue with that of native Virginian, Booker T. Washington (or maybe Maggie Walker as there are no women on the Ave).

In looking at the timeframe that the Maury statue was commissioned, I think even 90 years ago in Virginia there was already a notion to downplay the "war hero" aspect of the Confederacy and focus on a Virginian who could be considered a great thinker or leader outside of the Civil War. The Arthur Ashe statue was controversial but it dramatically changed the "climate" of Monument Avenue. The first step is still the removal of the Jefferson Davis statue. But there are a truckload of great Virginians that have no necessary association with the Confederacy:

Famous Virginians - Educators and Inventors - Virginia Is For Lovers
Famous Virginia Athletes - Virginia Is For Lovers
Virginia Entertainers - Virginia Is For Lovers
Historical Virginians - Virginia Is For Lovers
Virginia Writers, Journalists and Artists - Virginia Is For Lovers

I think adding a select few of these great Virginians will truly reform the landscape of Monument Avenue and easily make it a tribute that all Virginians can respect, not just neo-Confederates.
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Old 01-02-2016, 10:08 AM
 
9,619 posts, read 5,963,387 times
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its all about political correctness in keeping the black population happy. new orleans is a large black populated city, a chocolate city as their last criminal mayor would call it. and you can never keep a black population happy
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Old 01-04-2016, 08:51 PM
 
784 posts, read 1,199,064 times
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Wow no flag??
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Old 01-05-2016, 03:21 PM
Status: "He's trying to pull a Ronald 'McDonald' Miller scam on us.." (set 2 days ago)
 
2,162 posts, read 1,325,685 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Babe_Ruth View Post
What do you believe is the end game when a group of people, forcefully & aggressively, try to erase/destroy the symbols of another cultural group (?) peace.
For whatever it's worth..want to cite this recent vandalism & desecration of Confederate graves, to reinforce my belief that the destruction and/or removal of Confederate monuments is not about respectful progress. It's about hatred, and similar in spirit to what Nazis did when they destroyed the statues & memorials of Jewish composers, writers, etc.

Confederate graves, Gov. Aycock marker vandalized at Oakwood Cemetery | News & Observer

Correct me if I'm wrong, a statue of Arthur Ashe was added to Monument Avenue in the spirit of inclusion, no (?) So if inclusion (which I think is a noble course), is the real goal, why would Confederates have to (theoretically) come down, or be vandalized. Where's the mutual progressive respect (?)

Here's a clip from the 1936 report on the destruction of Mendelssohn's statue in Germany, to compare with the desecration of Confederate graves in Raleigh:
Mendelssohn’s Statue Destroyed by Nazis | Jewish Telegraphic Agency
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Old 01-06-2016, 11:55 PM
 
732 posts, read 779,440 times
Reputation: 1122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Babe_Ruth View Post
For whatever it's worth..want to cite this recent vandalism & desecration of Confederate graves, to reinforce my belief that the destruction and/or removal of Confederate monuments is not about respectful progress. It's about hatred, and similar in spirit to what Nazis did when they destroyed the statues & memorials of Jewish composers, writers, etc.

Confederate graves, Gov. Aycock marker vandalized at Oakwood Cemetery | News & Observer

Correct me if I'm wrong, a statue of Arthur Ashe was added to Monument Avenue in the spirit of inclusion, no (?) So if inclusion (which I think is a noble course), is the real goal, why would Confederates have to (theoretically) come down, or be vandalized. Where's the mutual progressive respect (?)

Here's a clip from the 1936 report on the destruction of Mendelssohn's statue in Germany, to compare with the desecration of Confederate graves in Raleigh:
Mendelssohn’s Statue Destroyed by Nazis | Jewish Telegraphic Agency
So by that logic you are saying you would be against the removal of any Hitler statues that were erected. I mean, he accomplished a lot for Germany at that time, right? Swaztika flags should be allowed to wave as important symbols of history?

The statues that the Nazi's destroyed were of people that didn't do harm or raise hatred towards other people (that we are aware of). Your argument is a bit askew, but keep trying.
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Old 01-07-2016, 12:22 PM
 
99 posts, read 129,536 times
Reputation: 104
I can't stress enough how tiresome Nazi comparisons become in political debates. Especially about these issues. They really are not the same thing. That is Godwin's law for you though.
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