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do people in syracuse talk the same way we do? or is the nasally northern cities vowel shift dialect restricted to buff/roc as far as NY goes...
People in Syracuse have the same inland northern dialect. The northern cities vowel shift/inland northern accent diminishes as you head east along the I-90 corridor. The general dividing line is Amsterdam in the eastern Mohawk Valley. In the Syracuse area, the dialect is fairly mild in the eastern suburbs, namely Fayettevillle, Manlius, DeWitt, Jamesville and Cazenovia. Like the west side of Rochester, the dialect in Syracuse's northern suburbs is much more apparent
I concur with the poster that said the accent is diluted in more affluent areas with a higher number of transplants and natives that are well educated. My cousins live in a community that is fairly similiar to Pittsford. I am convinced that the high number of transplants and teachers that are originally from outside the area is largely the reason that both of my cousins have a barely detectable to non-existent dialect.
One of the most interesting aspects of the accent in Rochester is that, in general, across the country, that accent comes from long ago German immigrants. The accent correlates almost perfectly with areas where the largest ethnic group is German. Much like how the New York accent is derived from having the largest ethnic group being Italians for so long, and the same goes for Boston and Irish. The largest ethnic group in Monroe County is German, yet the areas where the accent is strongest; Greece/Gates/Irondequoit, all have Italians as their largest ethnic group.
One of the most interesting aspects of the accent in Rochester is that, in general, across the country, that accent comes from long ago German immigrants. The accent correlates almost perfectly with areas where the largest ethnic group is German. Much like how the New York accent is derived from having the largest ethnic group being Italians for so long, and the same goes for Boston and Irish. The largest ethnic group in Monroe County is German, yet the areas where the accent is strongest; Greece/Gates/Irondequoit, all have Italians as their largest ethnic group.
I've been told by others that the accent has an Italian influence on it.... I can't really tell any ethnic influence on the accent German or Italian, but I've heard this from a few out of towners.
One of the most interesting aspects of the accent in Rochester is that, in general, across the country, that accent comes from long ago German immigrants. The accent correlates almost perfectly with areas where the largest ethnic group is German. Much like how the New York accent is derived from having the largest ethnic group being Italians for so long, and the same goes for Boston and Irish. The largest ethnic group in Monroe County is German, yet the areas where the accent is strongest; Greece/Gates/Irondequoit, all have Italians as their largest ethnic group.
In the Syracuse area, the accent is also strongest in towns and villages with heavy Italian populations. I also notice many Polish people have the dialect in places like suburban Buffalo and Chicago.
LOL! As a son of Roch, I'm here to tell yiz that you DO sound like that! Well, maybe not alla yiz, but my relatives do! We are German--Mom's family from Dutchtown, Dad's from NE Roch. My Polish and Irish relatives talk that way, too. I love it!
A little long-winded but I like this subject, in fact I find it fascinating. Random thoughts, facts, and observations:
Wolfgang Wolck at UB has studied the "northern cities shift". It starts where others noted, although I've heard it out in the countryside north and a little west of Albany. North of Syracuse, in and around Syracuse, and about halfway between there and Rochester is where I'd describe it as, well, "severe". I say that as a guy who grew up in Greece, but whose parents and extended family are from Buffalo and Ontario Cty. I have a rather severe accent, and, no, it hasn't left me after moving south, in fact it's probably getting more severe as I get older. The extended family in Ontario Cty, and into Fairport, Macedon, and whatnot have a pretty severe accent, in fact it's pretty funny, when I think about it. It's almost like the 'a''s are higher-pitched and people there hang on to them longer than other parts of the region. Some of this can be heard in Wayne Cty. as well.
Linguist Wolfgang Wolck has written several articles in various academic journals about the Buffalo accent, which he calls "Buffalo English." (Unfortunately, none of his excellent journal articles are on the Internet, and I'm very reluctant to transcribe them without his permission.) The most well-defined characteristics of Buffalo English include -
The flat-A, where words like "pass" and "Amherst" sound like "payass" and "Aymherst." The flat-A is more pronounced among Poles and Italians, less so among those of English, Irish and German decent.
The hard-A, written as an "o". Words like "Don," "pot" and box end up sounding like "Dan," "pat" and backs. The hard-A sound is spread pretty evenly in the community, but is somewhat stronger among Italians.
The "E" sound in words like "eleven" and "television" is lowered and centralized to a schwa-like sound. Words like "bed," "rest," and "best" will sound like "bad" or "bud," "rust" and "bust."
The AI dipthong, where words like "right" and "pine" can sound like "rate" and "pain."
Polish and Italian ethnic variations of the Buffalo accent, which Wolck calls "ethnolects". The Polish ethnolect is somewhat sing-songy and staccato, with devoicing of final consonants (saying "colt" instead of "cold") and dental defricativization ("dis" for "this," "dat" for "that"). The Italian ethnolect is flatter and more atonal, stresses words or word groups heavily, and has a lower voice pitch. The Buffalo Italian accent should not be confused with the stereotypical "Brooklyn thug" or Joe Peschi accent used in movies.
Most of Michigan has it, and parts of WI, OH, IN, IL, MO (along the river, and into the outskirts of St. Louis), MN, and IA have it, too. Some Northeastern OH folks (Elyria, Parma, etc.) have an almost identical accent to Rochester. The Buffalo accent sounds more central Midwestern to me, as in Chicago.
Shortly after moving to SC I was in an auto parts store one night, chatting with the guy behind the counter. Guy looks at me and says "You're from Rochester". Not "Are you from Rochester?", or, "Where are you from?", just "You're from Rochester". I was like a deer caught in headlights, as in "You gotta be kiddin' me" Most people here assume I'm from Wisconsin or thereabouts. I still habitually say "Neeeyork", instead of "New York", which seems to be another common peculiarity to "Rochester English".
The early French influence is key to the blending of syllables, as well as certain pronunciations and there are other Euro languages which do this, too, like Polish and Italian. I'd imagine the "queue" sound some are hearing comes from this, but I'm no expert. It stands to reason why this would be, considering Upstate's history going back to the 1600's, and the diverse Euro ethnic groups in and around the cities. I can mimic accents and dialects pretty well, as well as pick up on little idiosyncracies in how people talk. People in my family, more so the Buffalonians, do that "queue" thing all the time, and they do it with k's, too, for some reason. My dad does it, and he went to Catholic schools in Buffalo, all the way through college.
The severity of the Rochester accent, and points east, also pertains to hanging on to vowels, the hard K's and C's, and funny "r" sounds/hanging on to r's.
"When arrrrr you goin' to TAAHHhoze?"
"When arrrrrr we goin' to the (sometimes "da") House ah Guitaaarzzzzz???" ("of" is just not annunciated in some circles).
"What time is the AAAAAHmerks game? We parkin' at Nuh/Neh/TANyellz?"
"Let's go to DAAAaaahn and BAAAaaahb's", or "DAahn and BAaahb's".
I find it funny that despite these vocalizations, Rochester people tend to talk fast. It's common to hear people from all over the region say "RAAchster". It's like some words are dragged out, and others are blended and stated shorter than in other regions. Long, short, long, short, almost like there's a pattern to it. People like to make fun of how people talk in the South, but, good grief, some might argue the dialects up that way are in a category all their own, and one at which folks could easily poke fun A movie set in the Rochester area pretty much sums up the RAAAschster accent; it's called "Drivers Wanted".
Like anywhere, it's moreso amongst working class folks, and in Rochester that generally pertains to the west side, and somewhat out in farm country. My accent reflects this, and in some social settings around there it can raise some eyebrows, even questions like "Are you from the west side?", or statements like "You must be from the west side". People I know who grew up in the city, west and east sides have it even more severe than a lot of suburbanites. Personally, I can't help but have a good time around some of those friends because the accent is so funny, and the pronunciations are so specific to the area that it makes me laugh. Mostly they're from around Bay St. and points east and north from there (Parcells, Culver, etc.), and then over to Dutchtown and the old 10th Ward. Folks of Italian, Polish, and Ukranians descent seem to have it down pat.
Some folks I know who grew up in the city around Euro ethnic groups which were a different background from their own have taken on some of the vocalizations of those groups. The Italians win out, here, as they're the next largest ethnic group after Germans, and their vocalizations are strong. Folks who grew up in the city, and/or around Italians say "mingya" and other terms Italians with regularity (I still do this), and tend to sound like Italians with the inflection and whatnot. No doubt this is because of neighbors, fellow students, relatives, teachers, church associations, and other community influences. People in Rochester tend to be more dramatic than folks in other places, too
I've heard Italians from the two old major Italian neighborhoods (between Bay and Clifford/Waring Rd., and Dutchtown) who pretty much all sounded the same, and this has carried into Irondequoit, Greece, and Gates, and other areas where there are pockets of Italians. These folks (Italians and folks who grew up around Italians/in the city) tend to have the accent/dialect in the most severe way, and they talk LOUD Some of the Jewish folks I know in that area also have it, especially if they grew up in the city.
According to some experts, the "shift" is getting more pronounced, and spread out as time goes on. This is different from NYC. where fewer and fewer folks have the typical "NewYawk" dialect everyone knows. This is no doubt due to the fact it's truly international city, these days, and as people die off or move out the dialect has changed, or even disappeared amongst some younger folks.
Down in Columbia, and on down to the coast there's a definite French influence, as well. Like "shaaaarrrr-LAAAT", there's a street in Columbia called "Huger". The proper pronunciation is "HUGHHHH-geee", and it comes from the French influence in the region, before the Civil War. I'd argue that the accent/dialect down here is a mishmash of colonial English, French, West African, and, in some places, Spanish. What's kinda funny to me, though, is despite the fact people habitually say things with French pronunciations down here (like in Rochester), I've caught myself, even hesitated when pronouncing "Charlotte", the city. If I said "shaaaarrrr-LOT/LAAAT", down here, people would probably look at me as if I were crazy.
It's the same everywhere, it all depends on who was there first, in large numbers, and who came afterwards and became school teachers, etc. I'd imagine Catholic schools in the North (mostly) had something to do with the dialects up there, as large numbers of Catholics from Ireland, Germany, Poland, and Italy ended up there. Many sent their kids to Catholic school, only, in fact some in my extended family fall into that category. I'd imagine the early public school teachers were not as ethnically diverse as their counterparts in Catholic schools, at least for a couple of generations. You also have the large numbers of northern Europeans from Scandinavia and Holland who ended up in Upstate, in fact I think that's where a lot of the vocalizations come from. Most of those folks kept moving west, after they had a hand in building the canal (the first two canals), working on and around the canal for a while, preparing/selling land, and then moving into the Upper Midwest.
Why is this? The Erie Canal, Great Lakes shipping, and the railroads. The accent must have started in the Syracuse area, then moved through the Montezuma Swamp and points west, all the way pretty much to the Dakotas (I've heard it in small towns out that way). I just got done reading about Great Lakes shipping, a fascinating book about lake shipwrecks, and now I see how the entire region was connected, back in the day.
The canal had what were called "canawlers" who were the barge workers, and folks who ran the docks along the canal. Then you had the lake boat crews, and associated folks, who intermingled with the canawlers in Buffalo (usually these were not in positive ways). So, it stands to reason that with migration, the public and private schools, shipping/warehousing, and frequent associations with folks from across such a wide region that the accent spread far and wide.
I hope this wasn't too much for the Rochester forum, and I'm not trying to hijack the thread and whatnot. It's a subject I find fascinating, especially now that I don't live there anymore
<< Excellent essay, Howard! I find it fascinating too. Just a couple quibbles: I now live in the Midwest (Twin Cities, college in IA & WI) so I have to take exception that the accent is heard among Iowans and in Minnesotans. I disagree: Southern IA has a classic Midlands accent while northern IA and MN has a less pronounced accent than Roch or Midland. For example, I learned to say cawfee in Roch, while my wife (from IA) and most people in MN say kahfee. I pronounce cot and caught differently, but here in this part of the Midwest they are pronounced the same. In college, when I said fog, I got strange looks: they thought it sounded like *** (but we Roch'ns know *** is pronounced feeyug!) I lived in Milwaukee for a few years after college, and I felt pretty much right at home with my accent. Knew a guy from Detroit and a couple from Chicago in college, they all talked similar to me.
I found your comments about how the accent plays out in different parts of the city interesting. My Dad had a much stronger Roch accent than my Mom, though both are descendants of German immigrants who settled in Roch. My Dad grew up around Clifford and Goodman, while my Mom started life in Dutchtown but moved to the 19th Ward when she was little (Irish neighborhood). My Dad's family was much more blue collar than my Mom's, I always thought that explained his heavier accent, but maybe it was a west side/east side thing. Both went to Catholic grade schools but public high schools.
I've read that the canalers called themselves "canawlers" and was puzzled. A tru Roch'n would say "caneeler".
Now mingya, I haven't heard that word since I left Roch! Is that a local thing, or is it just Italian? Oh, and Charlotte, I've read that Roch'ns pronounce it SharLOTT. My folks pronounced it ShaLOTT (no r sound) Wonder if that has changed over the years?
My husband, who grew up in Pittsford LOVED this video. He has no accent whatsoever, and his brother (who still lives there) has a very mild accent. But both of his parents have very strong accents (they grew up in Leroy and Silver Creek). It's to the point where certain words they say are difficult to understand (for me anyway). After all these years I still find their accent fascinating. My father-in-law says "yous" instead of "you" and "hamburg" instead of "hamburger." They also say "shallaht" instead of "charlotte". My husband says that he remembers his grandparents saying mingya when he was growing up, and something like "mangia de mingya." He is 100% Sicilian, so maybe it's a regional Italian thing. The funniest experience by far though was when my mother-in-law was here in Albuquerque visiting and asked where she could find blocks at Toys R Us and the girl helping us (who happened to be black) thought she was asking where she could find "blacks." It's that Rochester ahhhh: blahhcks. I personally love the accent. But then again I love most accents.
<< Excellent essay, Howard! I find it fascinating too. Just a couple quibbles: I now live in the Midwest (Twin Cities, college in IA & WI) so I have to take exception that the accent is heard among Iowans and in Minnesotans. I disagree: Southern IA has a classic Midlands accent while northern IA and MN has a less pronounced accent than Roch or Midland. For example, I learned to say cawfee in Roch, while my wife (from IA) and most people in MN say kahfee. I pronounce cot and caught differently, but here in this part of the Midwest they are pronounced the same. In college, when I said fog, I got strange looks: they thought it sounded like *** (but we Roch'ns know *** is pronounced feeyug!) I lived in Milwaukee for a few years after college, and I felt pretty much right at home with my accent. Knew a guy from Detroit and a couple from Chicago in college, they all talked similar to me.
I found your comments about how the accent plays out in different parts of the city interesting. My Dad had a much stronger Roch accent than my Mom, though both are descendants of German immigrants who settled in Roch. My Dad grew up around Clifford and Goodman, while my Mom started life in Dutchtown but moved to the 19th Ward when she was little (Irish neighborhood). My Dad's family was much more blue collar than my Mom's, I always thought that explained his heavier accent, but maybe it was a west side/east side thing. Both went to Catholic grade schools but public high schools.
I've read that the canalers called themselves "canawlers" and was puzzled. A tru Roch'n would say "caneeler".
Now mingya, I haven't heard that word since I left Roch! Is that a local thing, or is it just Italian? Oh, and Charlotte, I've read that Roch'ns pronounce it SharLOTT. My folks pronounced it ShaLOTT (no r sound) Wonder if that has changed over the years?
I should have clarified, but got a little carried away. The Syracuse/Rochester regional dialect goes as far west as WI. You can hear it some on MI and OH, in spots. The general "shift" goes all the way from Central NY, to the very eastern Dakotas, in varying degrees, etc.
Thanks for the information about your background, and the associated accents/linguistics you shared.
I say "cawfee", although I've heard people in Roch. say "cahhfee". My mother from Ontario Cty. says "cahhfee", my dad from Buffalo says "cawfee". My mom's family is predominantly Irish, and lived in and around Chapin, Cdga., Hopewell, Bristol, Shortsville, etc. They all pretty much sound the same although the ones who grew up on the farm years ago have the strongest accents, and it sounds more Central NY-like with the "a" sounds. It sounds like there's more of a shift in the vowel, and there's a higher pitch than one might find in and around Rochester. Very, very distinctive, and I've yet to hear an "a" shift that strong anywhere else in this country. I think it generally runs from Ontario Cty., and east towards Syracuse, then maybe a little north up 81. It's probably common in more isolated groups, like folks who grew up on farms years ago. No doubt these little quirks are common in the Midwest, too.
Heh, I learn something new every day about the canal. "Caneelers" is a new one for me, and is probably Rochester-centric, as "canawler" was the typical term in Buffalo. Thanks for clarifying. The canal in Rochester may have had something to do with the differences across the city, although I think it might have more to do with the ethnic groups. There are two distinct accents, I can say that with confidence. Maybe "pre-such and such a date/immigrant groups coming to town", and post-whatever. The river could have had something to do with it in the early days, as well, although I think over time the little quirks of Rochester-speak spread across the city, probably about 1920 or so.
I know people who grew up in the predominantly German South Wedge, and they sound more like folks who grew up in the 19th Ward, Charlotte, most of the 10th Ward, and other areas of the city. Yet one older couple we know grew up in the old 3rd Ward, along Clarissa St., and their accents are more distinctive in comparison (they're Sicilian and Dutch, and second-generation American), and that's within walking distance of the 19th Ward and South Wedge. Folks from areas where there were lots of Italians have a different accent from others in the city, and this would be (mostly) Norton/Carter/Clifford/N. Goodman, Dutchtown, and Clarissa St. (pre-1970). Friends who grew up in the old Polish/Ukrainian section talk more "ethnic", in that they have similar vocalizations as a lot of Italians in Rochester, which makes sense considering the sheer numbers of that group, and their proximity to other ethnic groups in the city, years ago. I've heard them say "mingya" more times than I can remember.
"Mingya, I can't wait to drink a cold one at the/da Falcon's Club"
"Mingya" is common in Buffalo, too. I've heard it pronounced "ming-gya", "MEEN-gya", etc., sometimes both ways by the same person. It's an exclamation for Italians, as in "MEENgya, don't they know how to make any decent sauce in this joint???", or, "MEENgya, that/dat car just took a chunk outta my AAAAssss!!!". "Mingya" can be about good or bad things. You might hear it around Syracuse or, even better, Oneida County "MINGgya, when are the Bills gonna win???". "MEENgya, she's hot!!!".
Upstate NY slang - Comes from Sicilian/Italian word for the groin. Used to emphasize excitement or displeasure.
Mingya! I just bought these batteries and they're already dead! OR Mingya did you see the size of that fish? Sometimes shortened to Ming or Mee!
Now that's hilarious, there's even an urban dictionary entry for the term. I'd forgotten about "mee". "Mee" and "mingya" are generally interchangeable. Some might consider it low-brow or whatever, but, that's what I grew up with, plus we had an Italian family from NYC living next door. I feel more comfortable around people being themselves and having a good time, than folks who think they should act a certain way, lest others judge them this way or that.
I've heard people who grew up in the Charlotte neighborhood say "sharLOTTE" or "sharrrLOTTE". Yes, "shaLOTTE" seems common, too. BTW, the sharrrLOTTE Tavern is a great place to eat and hang out, and sharrrLOTTE Appliance is a great place to shop.
My husband, who grew up in Pittsford LOVED this video. He has no accent whatsoever, and his brother (who still lives there) has a very mild accent. But both of his parents have very strong accents (they grew up in Leroy and Silver Creek). It's to the point where certain words they say are difficult to understand (for me anyway). After all these years I still find their accent fascinating. My father-in-law says "yous" instead of "you" and "hamburg" instead of "hamburger." They also say "shallaht" instead of "charlotte". My husband says that he remembers his grandparents saying mingya when he was growing up, and something like "mangia de mingya." He is 100% Sicilian, so maybe it's a regional Italian thing. The funniest experience by far though was when my mother-in-law was here in Albuquerque visiting and asked where she could find blocks at Toys R Us and the girl helping us (who happened to be black) thought she was asking where she could find "blacks." It's that Rochester ahhhh: blahhcks. I personally love the accent. But then again I love most accents.
I've had to listen to myself speak out loud, in order to "correct" myself and try and change certain pronunciations, but I can't, so I use different words in certain company. I've had people who start laughing when they hear me talk, and these are folks around here we regularly hang out with, and it's most likely pronunciations where it sounds like I'm saying something completely different. A few times I've had people ask me "to talk", just so they can hear my accent. Northern (Great Lakes mostly) accents, plus ice hockey seem to be curiosities down here.
That's funny about your family members, as I say some of the same stuff. At "TAAAHHhoe's" I'd order a "cheeseburg plate, mac, home fries, no onions", with a "paaahhhp". I never say hamburger, it's usually "hamburg" or "burger". Hot dogs screw me up, and I have to catch myself down here. When we moved here I'd say "Yeah, I'll have a red haahht", and people would look at me like I was crazy. So, I started saying "red haahht dawg", which still caused confusion, and then segued to "haahht dawg", that way I could be understood by like 95% of the country I tried explaining white hot dogs to friends here, but they didn't get it and thought I was talking about bratwursts (there's a strong German influence in parts of the South).
Also, I'll add the still image in that video is classic, too. We kids had mullets when we were younger, and for some odd reason the 'stache is a common thing across western NY, maybe Syracuse, too. Rhode Island, parts of Upstate, and parts of the Midwest seem to be places where the 'stache is popular (think Rich Funke from like 20 years ago).
Last edited by HowardRoarke; 10-27-2010 at 10:58 PM..
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, the hard K's and C's, and funny "r" sounds/hanging on to r's. 
People I know who grew up in the city, west and east sides have it even more severe than a lot of suburbanites. Personally, I can't help but have a good time around some of those friends because the accent is so funny, and the pronunciations are so specific to the area that it makes me laugh. Mostly they're from around Bay St. and points east and north from there (Parcells, Culver, etc.), and then over to Dutchtown and the old 10th Ward. Folks of Italian, Polish, and Ukranians descent seem to have it down pat.
