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A ferry between two dying towns isn't a good example of how a ferry can work between a dying city and bustling Canadian metro could work. Are you really that naïve?
Actually the city of Plattsburgh and Clinton County added people between 2000-2010 and Burlington is not a dying city/metro and has also grown in recent years. This takes a simple internet search to find this out.
Also, the Rochester metro has never had a population decline in any census.
Last edited by ckhthankgod; 02-14-2014 at 11:20 PM..
Actually the city of Plattsburgh and Clinton County added people between 2000-2010 and Burlington is not a dying city/metro and has also grown in recent years. This takes a simple internet search to find this out.
Also, the Rochester metro has never had a population decline in any census.
We've been through this: just because the population doesn't decrease doesn't mean it isnt dying...
We've been through this: just because the population doesn't decrease doesn't mean it isnt dying...
You've obviously haven't heard about Burlington and isn't population growth always touted on here when it comes to areas in other regions? I guess population growth equals dying city. Yikes!
You've obviously haven't heard about Burlington and isn't population growth always touted on here when it comes to areas in other regions? I guess population growth equals dying city. Yikes!
The ferry idea is a bad one. Burlington and Plattsburgh are a lot closer together and I'm guessing the associated costs are considerably less. The best thing Rochester can do right now is make the port of Rochester a place local people actually want to go. There are numerous challenges, including distance from other desirable areas, perception of decline in other northern suburbs, a short season/lack of business in the winter months, and polluted beaches.
If they can create a destination (big if) maybe some of the great lakes cruises start stopping in Rochester. It's not really a big business at this point, but I could see it growing in the future. That's Rochester's ticket to more tourism; not a ferry to a place most people can already drive to. The biggest thing Charlotte probably needs at this point is to connect itself with the wine industry. As bad as I believe NY wines are other people seem to like them and it seems to be a draw. I imagine if this can work at Niagara on the lake it could work at Charlotte. Then we would actually be the gateway to the finger lakes wine region; rather than a perceived decaying city next to the finger lakes wine region.
As far as growing and dying cities there are actually very few major cities that are shrinking at this point. Even cities like Rochester remained near flat or had modest growth the last couple of years. Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo are obvious exceptions. The trend is that older empty nesters and young singles want to live in more urban environments. This is why Pittsford is building high end apartments on the Erie canal, Webster is re-doing it's village, and Irondequoit is building I-Square. I've actually heard from local developers that they've pulled out of the apartment market in the suburbs completely due to a collapse of demand. Others are responding by trying to create a semi-urban environment in the suburbs. In most cases it won't work due to the traffic nightmare it creates. The city is a grid and people can easily drive around congested areas. Just look at what Victor has done, sure its walkable and nice, but they've also made it impossible to get to the other side of the Village due to some of the worst traffic I've ever seen in Western NY. Rochester is usually behind the curve in things like this so you can imagine what its like in other parts of the country.
The ferry idea is a bad one. Burlington and Plattsburgh are a lot closer together and I'm guessing the associated costs are considerably less. The best thing Rochester can do right now is make the port of Rochester a place local people actually want to go. There are numerous challenges, including distance from other desirable areas, perception of decline in other northern suburbs, a short season/lack of business in the winter months, and polluted beaches.
If they can create a destination (big if) maybe some of the great lakes cruises start stopping in Rochester. It's not really a big business at this point, but I could see it growing in the future. That's Rochester's ticket to more tourism; not a ferry to a place most people can already drive to. The biggest thing Charlotte probably needs at this point is to connect itself with the wine industry. As bad as I believe NY wines are other people seem to like them and it seems to be a draw. I imagine if this can work at Niagara on the lake it could work at Charlotte. Then we would actually be the gateway to the finger lakes wine region; rather than a perceived decaying city next to the finger lakes wine region.
As far as growing and dying cities there are actually very few major cities that are shrinking at this point. Even cities like Rochester remained near flat or had modest growth the last couple of years. Detroit, Cleveland and Buffalo are obvious exceptions. The trend is that older empty nesters and young singles want to live in more urban environments. This is why Pittsford is building high end apartments on the Erie canal, Webster is re-doing it's village, and Irondequoit is building I-Square. I've actually heard from local developers that they've pulled out of the apartment market in the suburbs completely due to a collapse of demand. Others are responding by trying to create a semi-urban environment in the suburbs. In most cases it won't work due to the traffic nightmare it creates. The city is a grid and people can easily drive around congested areas. Just look at what Victor has done, sure its walkable and nice, but they've also made it impossible to get to the other side of the Village due to some of the worst traffic I've ever seen in Western NY. Rochester is usually behind the curve in things like this so you can imagine what its like in other parts of the country.
Yeah, I don't know if the ferry itself is a good idea, but I just thought that the Plattsburgh/Burlington system could possibly give a good example of how to run a ferry system.
I think villages can get into the walkability to amenities scene, if they either have enough amenities in place, if there is some demand and if planned correctly.
Yeah I see your point. I just don't think in most cases a ferry that takes people from one place to another is a great idea. Especially when most people will want their car on the other side. It's probably easier to go without a car in Burlington than Rochester or Toronto. Obviously there are many things you can get to in Toronto via transit, but there are many others that you cannot. The cruises are the way to go because no one will want to go to Rochester on its own, but they might as part of a package deal with other cities. There is also no reason great lakes cities can't develop their waterfronts and make this work.
As far as the villages go I think it will work in some cases. Pittsford will likely succeed due to its affluence and great school system. Webster to me is more of a maybe. It won't disrupt traffic, but I'm also not sure that someone who wants that kind of lifestyle will live all the way out in Webster...maybe I'm wrong. Irondequoit to me is doomed. They have a grid pattern much like the city, but the town is shrinking, the mall situation and the performing arts center appear to have blown up and East Irondequoit's schools are terrible. I'm not sure I buy into the town center idea for them. Penfield is a good example of a town that can't even try something like this because if they were to slow down traffic through their village it would prevent suburban residents on the other side of the village from being able to drive down 441 and 5 mile line road at 50 mph.
The trick with amenities is you need population density. For retail to really take off you want your wealthy areas to be population dense and for other reasons (mostly crime) you want your poorer areas to have population more spread out. Up until now Park Avenue has been the densest, most affluent neighborhood, but because it is in a preservation district and there is no land to build additional apartment buildings the population has been flat for years. The commercial spaces on Park Ave are also extremely small. It's for this reason that Park Avenue is mostly made up of Restaurants and Salons frequented by motorists and not Retail supported by local residents.
The big game changer is downtown, but we'll just have to see how the Sibley Building and Midtown Tower projects end up. If they fill up both buildings, put a new performing arts center downtown, a 10 screen multiplex, waterpark, windstream (already there), new D&C building, and high end retail there will be few people left saying Rochester is a dying city, but these are massive projects and hardly a slam dunk.
From the way things are going in Nys, how things are happening outside of Nys. I would assume.it will be in the rear view mirror of many
I am convinced!!! Your examples comparing and contrasting the way things are inside of NY and outside of the state are really what sealed the deal for me. Well done.
I am convinced!!! Your examples comparing and contrasting the way things are inside of NY and outside of the state are really what sealed the deal for me. Well done.
Do thy need examples? Isn't it blatantly obvious?
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