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Old 06-13-2022, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Los Angeles
176 posts, read 263,629 times
Reputation: 124

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Quote:
Originally Posted by shelato View Post
There was more than a billion dollars worth of damages due to looting, arson and rioting. Antifa set up exclusion zones in muliple cities where police were not allowed to enter. This went nightly rioting continued for months in multiple cities. But your right rioting is the wrong term here, let us call it what it was it was an insurrection and it should have been put down with force. Once the protests got violent, those committing violence should be prosecuted. I have no problem with the January 6 hearings and arrests. I just want all future insurrectionists held to this standard and I want this standard to apply to the people acting out in the BLM insurrection.



The purpose of the BLM insurrection was to change police procedures. That happened. We are now dealing with the consequences of that. The more you defund the police and stop enforcing the law the more unlivable your city becomes. That was why Chesa Boudin was recalled in SF, the drug dealers were running amok and stores were closing due to all of the shoplifting that the junkies were doing to fund their addictions. But sure go ahead defund the police. Let us see how well that goes here.
Yep. Thanks for telling it like it is.
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Old 06-13-2022, 12:10 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
176 posts, read 263,629 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
If someone thinks murdering people indiscriminately is "police procedure," they want to live in a police state. No thanks. If the response of law enforcement is "blue flu" then we can use some of their funding to take over parts of their job that police aren't good at--such as providing social services to the unhoused or mediating domestic disputes, which would let police officers focus their resources and efforts on their core mission, which, it should be stated for the record, does not include the unlimited right to murder people of color for looking at them cross-eyed.
Saying that police have an unlimited right to kill people for "looking at them cross-eyed" is a bit of a stretch, isn't it? Has that ever happened in the last 30 years? Or are the police stressed and burned out by abundance of George Floyds out there? (George Floyds come in all colors, and no, that does not give the cops the right to kneel on their necks like Chauvin did to Floyd).

But if you want to characterize criminal activity as "looking at the cops cross-eyed" and you want the cops to act with an abundance of patience and precaution, that's all all well and good. Just be prepared to pay for that. You can either pay on the front end, by paying for a lot of extra police and social workers come and sweet talk the George Floyds of the world into complying and being arrested peacefully, or you just subdue and defund the police and see if the bad guys will nicer now that the police are defunded and acting like all talk and no action. I suspect that that latter course of action is going to result in a lot more unchecked crime, and you will pay for those policies in unchecked robberies, and stores leaving areas with that type of crime.
After that happens, the majority of people are going to want the police to take "rougher measures" to get things under control.
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Old 06-13-2022, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
13,997 posts, read 25,811,538 times
Reputation: 7029
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelato View Post
There was more than a billion dollars worth of damages due to looting, arson and rioting. Antifa set up exclusion zones in muliple cities where police were not allowed to enter. This went nightly rioting continued for months in multiple cities. But your right rioting is the wrong term here, let us call it what it was it was an insurrection and it should have been put down with force. Once the protests got violent, those committing violence should be prosecuted. I have no problem with the January 6 hearings and arrests. I just want all future insurrectionists held to this standard and I want this standard to apply to the people acting out in the BLM insurrection.


The purpose of the BLM insurrection was to change police procedures. That happened. We are now dealing with the consequences of that. The more you defund the police and stop enforcing the law the more unlivable your city becomes. That was why Chesa Boudin was recalled in SF, the drug dealers were running amok and stores were closing due to all of the shoplifting that the junkies were doing to fund their addictions. But sure go ahead defund the police. Let us see how well that goes here.
It's unfortunate, but I agree with you.
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Old 06-13-2022, 01:54 PM
 
Location: Bay Area
100 posts, read 270,240 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelato View Post
There was more than a billion dollars worth of damages due to looting, arson and rioting. Antifa set up exclusion zones in muliple cities where police were not allowed to enter. This went nightly rioting continued for months in multiple cities. But your right rioting is the wrong term here, let us call it what it was it was an insurrection and it should have been put down with force. Once the protests got violent, those committing violence should be prosecuted. I have no problem with the January 6 hearings and arrests. I just want all future insurrectionists held to this standard and I want this standard to apply to the people acting out in the BLM insurrection.



The purpose of the BLM insurrection was to change police procedures. That happened. We are now dealing with the consequences of that. The more you defund the police and stop enforcing the law the more unlivable your city becomes. That was why Chesa Boudin was recalled in SF, the drug dealers were running amok and stores were closing due to all of the shoplifting that the junkies were doing to fund their addictions. But sure go ahead defund the police. Let us see how well that goes here.

Antifa camped out in a few blocks in the city of Seattle. That's it. I understand this collection of groups (not even really organized) is a convenient bogeyman for you, but come on. Not to mention, until the video of what happened to George Floyd became public, the MPD statement read that he "died of a medical condition following contact with the police." Uhh, not quite. As for police procedures, A major overhaul in Congress fell apart and has yet to be resurrected.

If people would actually do their HW, they'd see that a) police budgets are approach a record-high nationwide, and b) a bloated budget does little to bring down the crime rate. In fact, spending more money on things like the War on Drugs probably serves to distract from what the police were originally created for.
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Old 06-13-2022, 02:01 PM
 
Location: Bay Area
100 posts, read 270,240 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by terranova View Post
Saying that police have an unlimited right to kill people for "looking at them cross-eyed" is a bit of a stretch, isn't it? Has that ever happened in the last 30 years? Or are the police stressed and burned out by abundance of George Floyds out there? (George Floyds come in all colors, and no, that does not give the cops the right to kneel on their necks like Chauvin did to Floyd).

But if you want to characterize criminal activity as "looking at the cops cross-eyed" and you want the cops to act with an abundance of patience and precaution, that's all all well and good. Just be prepared to pay for that. You can either pay on the front end, by paying for a lot of extra police and social workers come and sweet talk the George Floyds of the world into complying and being arrested peacefully, or you just subdue and defund the police and see if the bad guys will nicer now that the police are defunded and acting like all talk and no action. I suspect that that latter course of action is going to result in a lot more unchecked crime, and you will pay for those policies in unchecked robberies, and stores leaving areas with that type of crime.
After that happens, the majority of people are going to want the police to take "rougher measures" to get things under control.
To put things in perspective, last year police in England and Wales shot and killed two people. Two...in a nation of around 60 million people. Meanwhile, police in the USA fatally shot over 1,100. Maybe looking at the cops cross-eyed won't get you shot, but I take the original OP's point. Resisting arrest or running away from the police shouldn't get anyone summarily executed, either...both of which have happened before, and on-camera, too.

As stated before, swelling police budgets for things like camo and heavy-armored vehicles does little to bring down the violent crime rate...the numbers just aren't there. "Defund the police" might be a bad slogan, but the whole "tough on crime" approach isn't proven to bear out the results people want. Criminals are usually discouraged if they know that punishment will be a) certain and b) swift. The severity of the punishment has next to nothing to do with it.
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Old 06-13-2022, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
176 posts, read 263,629 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by footballer0607 View Post
To put things in perspective, last year police in England and Wales shot and killed two people. Two...in a nation of around 60 million people. Meanwhile, police in the USA fatally shot over 1,100. Maybe looking at the cops cross-eyed won't get you shot, but I take the original OP's point. Resisting arrest or running away from the police shouldn't get anyone summarily executed, either...both of which have happened before, and on-camera, too.
Of course the police in England only killed two people. That's how things work when the populace is largely unarmed. When you have millions of people carrying both legal and illegal firearms in the U.S., then that changes the equation a bit, doesn't it?

In case you didn't know it, there are some bad boys out there that doin't feel like going back to prison, and they are going to go down fighting rather than getting busted on their next run in with the law. How do you think that this makes things different here than in England?

If you become a police officer in the U.S., the policy and training was such to give you a reasonable chance of survival when confronting armed suspects who are willing to shoot you. Do you think that you are going to find anyone willing to do policing work if the odds are only 50/50 or in the criminals' favor?
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Old 06-13-2022, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Bay Area
100 posts, read 270,240 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by terranova View Post
Of course the police in England only killed two people. That's how things work when the populace is largely unarmed. When you have millions of people carrying both legal and illegal firearms in the U.S., then that changes the equation a bit, doesn't it?

In case you didn't know it, there are some bad boys out there that doin't feel like going back to prison, and they are going to go down fighting rather than getting busted on their next run in with the law. How do you think that this makes things different here than in England?

If you become a police officer in the U.S., the policy and training was such to give you a reasonable chance of survival when confronting armed suspects who are willing to shoot you. Do you think that you are going to find anyone willing to do policing work if the odds are only 50/50 or in the criminals' favor?
The easy proliferation of firearms in this country is largely why things often seem to be in criminals' favor, such as the police not wanting to enter that school in Uvalde, TX while the children were being slaughtered. As for criminals willing to shoot it out with law enforcement, that'd not only increase, but rather guarantee them being sent back to prison and/or face capital punishment...remember what I said about certainty of punishment being a deterrent to crime? Reading is fundamental.

You can fear-monger if you want to, but if you're for this needless arms race between criminals and the police, you can't tell me with a straight face that you're for freedom and democracy. As a profession, policing in the USA doesn't even crack the top 10 in terms of how dangerous it is. Training in the USA? LOL, for most police here it's 6 months. In some other developed nations it can be up to 3 years.
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Old 06-13-2022, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
176 posts, read 263,629 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by footballer0607 View Post
that'd not only increase, but rather guarantee them being sent back to prison and/or face capital punishment...remember what I said about certainty of punishment being a deterrent to crime? Reading is fundamental.
Yes, I agree with certainty of swift punishment to crime. That's why I didn't take issue with that comment.

Yes, Reading sure is fundamental )
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Old 06-13-2022, 04:11 PM
 
8,601 posts, read 16,269,147 times
Reputation: 4516
Quote:
Originally Posted by terranova View Post
Saying that police have an unlimited right to kill people for "looking at them cross-eyed" is a bit of a stretch, isn't it? Has that ever happened in the last 30 years? Or are the police stressed and burned out by abundance of George Floyds out there? (George Floyds come in all colors, and no, that does not give the cops the right to kneel on their necks like Chauvin did to Floyd).

No, I'm saying that police should not have an unlimited right to kill people for looking at them cross-eyed, and the reason why there is a Black Lives Matter movement is because of the nearly unchecked power of police to kill people of color with minimal justification. It happens disturbingly often in this country, which, again, is why a movement was started to protest its frequency and blatant application in contemporary society. If police are stressed and burned out by murdering people like George Floyd, then they should definitely stop doing that and start doing police work instead. And, again, if someone thinks that kneeling on someone's neck like George Floyd is police work, they're asking to live in a police state, and if a police officer thinks it is, they're a disgrace to their profession, and they should quit their jobs or be fired.
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Old 06-13-2022, 10:28 PM
 
Location: Los Angeles
176 posts, read 263,629 times
Reputation: 124
Quote:
Originally Posted by wburg View Post
No, I'm saying that police should not have an unlimited right to kill people for looking at them cross-eyed, and the reason why there is a Black Lives Matter movement is because of the nearly unchecked power of police to kill people of color with minimal justification. It happens disturbingly often in this country, which, again, is why a movement was started to protest its frequency and blatant application in contemporary society. If police are stressed and burned out by murdering people like George Floyd, then they should definitely stop doing that and start doing police work instead. And, again, if someone thinks that kneeling on someone's neck like George Floyd is police work, they're asking to live in a police state, and if a police officer thinks it is, they're a disgrace to their profession, and they should quit their jobs or be fired.
I'm all for the BLM movement, as long as people don't lose sight of the fact that we also need the police, and that not all or even most cops are villains. It's a tough job, and yes, i agree that cops need to have the patience to deal with a lot of the dregs of society. People that don't want to comply with lawful requests made by the police.

I'm also all for keeping the police in check, and going after those who abuse their authority. I hate police abuse of power as much as i hate criminals getting away with murder. Yes, the bad cops should be fired and held criminally accountable. But i'm not going to be one-sided about it.

But you are a bit confused if you think that police are stressed out "by murdering people like George Floyd." What i said was that they are stressed out by constantly having to deal with a multitude of people like George Floyd (who come in all races) -- whether they be petty criminals who don't want to be arrested, or truly dangerous criminals who are armed and willing to shoot you.
You would also wrong if you think that you would never have to use a gun or a baton if you were a police officer. Those are policing tools, not uniform decorations. There is a reason for cops to carry guns and batons just as there is a reason why there is a Black Lives Matter movement.

Maybe the cops *do* need to kneel on somebody who is resisting arrest (of course not for nine minutes, and not for any lethal effect). Do you think that criminals are just going to listen you you (as a cop) if you are not allowed to use any of force against them? Do you think that you could talk your way into making arrests, apprehending criminals in the act? There are some bad boys who don't want to go back to prison, and they are willing to go down fighting rather than being arrested again. Instead of characterizing all or most cops as "murderers," you should really think about the type of people they have to deal with, and what they are tasked to do, which also calls for putting their own lives on the line.
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