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Admittedly I don't know a whole lot about the Korean-American community there, aside from a friend who grew up in Rancho Cordova whose dad married a Korean woman while stationed there, but you find a lot of biracial families in military towns, and Rancho Cordova was basically not much more than the residential area for McClellan Air Force Base (since converted to civilian use) until the 1990s. However, there isn't a particular "Koreatown" geographic area that I'm aware of, and even Little Saigon is more the name of a commercial area rather than a particular concentration of Vietnamese families. But there are a lot of Korean restaurants of legendary reputation in Rancho Cordova/Rosemont, and a couple of markets.
South Sacramento, which is principally a neighborhood in unincorporated Sacramento County between Sacramento and Elk Grove, does have a reputation as a high crime area, but not everywhere in the southern part of Sacramento is a high crime area; Land Park is very very expensive, but the Pocket neighborhood isn't quite so pricey and has a good reputation, and you may have seen my old, old post about Southside Park near downtown, which as mentioned has very old Japanese and Chinese communities dating back to the 19th Century. But overall, Sacramento is a very diverse and very integrated city; although there are definitely some neighborhoods that are more integrated than others. Generally, in the Sacramento area as you get farther east/northeast from Sacramento itself, up into the foothills, the neighborhoods get whiter, and based on my own experiences growing up out that way, it can get a lot more racist. I won't pretend that racism doesn't happen in Sacramento itself, it most certainly exists, but your kid certainly won't be the lone Asian kid in most parts of the city here.
And yeah, it gets very hot here, but in our defense, it's a lot less humid than Texas. There's a massive thread here dedicated to local weather that can fill you in on more climate specifics.
Hi wburg, thanks for the additional details and for elaborating on Little Saigon and lack of an Koreatown (although good to know one can at least get some good BBQ) This really helps a lot. Can't remember if I mentioned this in my last post but part of the reason I placed some value on ethnic stores/restaurants being in an area is I'm assuming the owners did some basic demographic research to detect trends and tastes so maybe might be indicative of the open-ness to other cultures in a specific area.
Also thanks a lot for the warning on POTENTIAL racism in the foothills. Are we talking just verbal racism or actual physical harm? While I don't like either, I can deal with someone calling me Bruce Lee vs someone sticking a knife in my back which is sadly what happened to those elderly Asian women in the financial district of SF. I also want to acknowledge that having traveled the world myself, racism can be found everywhere and not necessarily a black or white thing (although obviously in many parts of US it is). I mean there's blatant racism in Asia, OMG, but I'll spare this thread the details. And having friends from all races, they've ALL made jokes in light hearted fun for ALL other races other than themselves and that if a white person were to make similar jokes today in today's climate, would get canceled in a heartbeat. So I'm not concerned about that sort of thing. I'm concerned about someone jumping my son or my wife or mother-in-law as they just walk around the neighborhood. As for me, I'm trying to obtain a conceal carry permit and sadly always bring a legal sized knife and taser ever since the recent events in SF and NY.
It's a bit tough to judge, but the rougher parts of Sacramento are probably considerably less rough than the rougher parts of LA or the Bay Area, while the not-so-rough parts of Sacramento (like the ones we are discussing) are probably pretty comparable in terms of crime rate to parts of LA and the Bay Area you may be more comfortable with. We're a large city, and that's going to come with large-city baggage, but we're not a particular stand-out in terms of crime when compared to other California cities. On the CCW front, Sacramento County's sheriff is apparently pretty easygoing when it comes to issuing permits.
The reason there really isn't a Korean neighborhood in Sacramento is pretty much the same reason that there isn't an Irish neighborhood in Sacramento. The economy in both Korea and Ireland have done much better in the past 30 or 40 years so people living in both of those places no longer need to move abroad to find a good high paying job, so emigration from both places has dropped dramatically. In larger cities like Boston, New York, SF and Los Angeles, you can find legacy ethnic enclaves back from when their had been higher levels of emigration from Korea and Ireland, but their just aren't the waves of emigrants from these locations to sustain let alone create new ethnic enclaves in places like Sacramento.
Of the immigrants from Korea today, they are really highly educated. A lot are going to be working and living near work as engineers at Intel in Folsom, at HP in Roseville or at Oracle in Rocklin. Because the English skills of this group is so high, they don't need to live in racially segregated majority Korean community. Now all of these employers are sourcing employees globally. So you are also going to find engineers working at these places not just from Korea, but Taiwan, China, Pakistan and India to just name a few locations they are importing employees from abroad. So the communities where these Koreans are living isn't rural Iowa either.
Dallas Fort Worth is just a much larger population area than Sacramento so is might have an older historic Korean community, but the closest thing we have in Sacramento is Rancho Cordova. You can find Korean restaurants and stores in that area. But Rancho Cordova isn't really a majority Korean neighborhood either. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Russians and Eastern Europeans living there than Koreans. I will also say ethnic hostility seems to increase with poverty.
So i would be much more concerned with being Korean in Rancho Cordova or South Sac, than in Folsom, Roseville or Rocklin.
Sacramento did have its own ethnic enclaves (the aforementioned Southside neighborhood was an Irish enclave before it became predominantly Italian and Portuguese, then Chinese, Japanese and Latino), and they still exist in some parts of the city, but most of the older ones downtown were scattered by redevelopment in the 1950s. According to some of the older residents of Sacramento's original Japantown, which doesn't physically exist anymore, there were a few Koreans in Japantown but not really a separate community. Similarly, there is no trace left of our original Chinatown, despite once having the second-largest Chinese community on the west coast (called Yee Fow, "Second City," after San Francisco's Dai Fow "Big City") but the redeveloped area where it stood along I and J Street does include a couple square blocks of mid-century buildings inspired by classical Chinese architecture, mostly designed by local Chinese-American architects, and a late 1950s Confucius temple. As Shelato mentions, the Sacramento region is generally pretty integrated, with the caveats I mentioned earlier, but there are some identifiable cultural hubs.
It's a bit tough to judge, but the rougher parts of Sacramento are probably considerably less rough than the rougher parts of LA or the Bay Area, while the not-so-rough parts of Sacramento (like the ones we are discussing) are probably pretty comparable in terms of crime rate to parts of LA and the Bay Area you may be more comfortable with. We're a large city, and that's going to come with large-city baggage, but we're not a particular stand-out in terms of crime when compared to other California cities. On the CCW front, Sacramento County's sheriff is apparently pretty easygoing when it comes to issuing permits.
Regarding rougher parts of Sac, that's good to know. Thanks. I'm hoping you're correct and will just have to make the drive up in the coming weeks to see with my own eyes how safe it feels. I haven't ventured to the truly rough parts of LA or even the Bay really but the stabbings I was referring to took place on Market St right by the Financial District. That is not a dangerous area, at least during the day and I've always felt safe in that area. Hell, I've even worn suits at times in the past for work so for that to happen, made me consider the potential "negative Asia branding" from Covid coupled with the frustration of being locked down and masked up for months. Now I'm saying a prayer as I type this that war with China is avoided but if that did happen, I'd also be concerned with how that might impact the social dynamic. It's my job to try and understand behavioral patterns and tastes with different demographics so unless a specific community is truly enlightened or open minded, generally speaking there's going to be that small probability %
Lastly, nice to hear about the CCP. Hmmm. That coupled with 110 degree weather, starting to feel closer to Texas than the Bay Area
Quote:
Originally Posted by shelato
The reason there really isn't a Korean neighborhood in Sacramento is pretty much the same reason that there isn't an Irish neighborhood in Sacramento. The economy in both Korea and Ireland have done much better in the past 30 or 40 years so people living in both of those places no longer need to move abroad to find a good high paying job, so emigration from both places has dropped dramatically. In larger cities like Boston, New York, SF and Los Angeles, you can find legacy ethnic enclaves back from when their had been higher levels of emigration from Korea and Ireland, but their just aren't the waves of emigrants from these locations to sustain let alone create new ethnic enclaves in places like Sacramento.
Of the immigrants from Korea today, they are really highly educated. A lot are going to be working and living near work as engineers at Intel in Folsom, at HP in Roseville or at Oracle in Rocklin. Because the English skills of this group is so high, they don't need to live in racially segregated majority Korean community. Now all of these employers are sourcing employees globally. So you are also going to find engineers working at these places not just from Korea, but Taiwan, China, Pakistan and India to just name a few locations they are importing employees from abroad. So the communities where these Koreans are living isn't rural Iowa either.
Dallas Fort Worth is just a much larger population area than Sacramento so is might have an older historic Korean community, but the closest thing we have in Sacramento is Rancho Cordova. You can find Korean restaurants and stores in that area. But Rancho Cordova isn't really a majority Korean neighborhood either. I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Russians and Eastern Europeans living there than Koreans. I will also say ethnic hostility seems to increase with poverty.
So i would be much more concerned with being Korean in Rancho Cordova or South Sac, than in Folsom, Roseville or Rocklin.
Hi Shelato, thanks for sharing your opinions, especially the demographic shifts. Yes I can see that. Man, if I had a chance to live and work in Seoul, I wouldn't even come here! I've visited South Korea a few times in the past (my ex was Korean) and can vouch the quality of life is great! Not as clean as say Tokyo (nowhere is really) but the common theme amongst both cities is that there was so much exciting nightlife, on the same level as NY or LA, both super safe at all hours of the day and very affordable. Frankly it was hard to come back to the US after experiencing that way of life, not to mention the outrageous cost of living here. If I wasn't married I'd probably be trying to make my way back there and just travel around Asia with occasional trips to the EU. Instead I'm considering moving to Rancho Cordova Anyways..
You brought up a interesting data point regarding ethnic hostility being tied to poverty. 110% agree and this is something the media hasn't focused on at all in that many of the anti-Asian attacks in SF and NY were by homeless people. So mental health is a missing part of the conversation. But I had also assumed that Rancho Cordova was just a sleepy suburb with no real difference between Rosemont, Rockville, Folsom and Rocklin. So there's more poverty there with a homeless population? Jeez, I had mistakenly assumed that the Korean shops were a filter of some baseline safety and standard of living. For reference, here in LA County, there's the Galleria Korean grocery store in Northridge and an H Mart in Torrance where both locations have million dollar homes nearby. But based on your post, it sounds like it might be "ghetto" there?
Also, just curious, have you ever visited the Dallas area, specifically Plano or surrounding areas? My simple logic is if a home by an H Mart in either Silicon Valley or Torrance goes for $1 million + and I can find the same home with standard of living by an H Mart in Dallas at $300k, I'm already up just by moving there. But as my wife is intent on staying in CA, I'm probably going to at least spend a few days checking out Sacramento to give it a shot.
Thanks!
Last edited by musicsaverdude; 06-16-2021 at 10:57 PM..
Regarding rougher parts of Sac, that's good to know. Thanks. I'm hoping you're correct and will just have to make the drive up in the coming weeks to see with my own eyes how safe it feels. I haven't ventured to the truly rough parts of LA or even the Bay really but the stabbings I was referring to took place on Market St right by the Financial District. That is not a dangerous area, at least during the day and I've always felt safe in that area. Hell, I've even worn suits at times in the past for work so for that to happen, made me consider the potential "negative Asia branding" from Covid coupled with the frustration of being locked down and masked up for months. Now I'm saying a prayer as I type this that war with China is avoided but if that did happen, I'd also be concerned with how that might impact the social dynamic. It's my job to try and understand behavioral patterns and tastes with different demographics so unless a specific community is truly enlightened or open minded, generally speaking there's going to be that small probability %
Lastly, nice to hear about the CCP. Hmmm. That coupled with 110 degree weather, starting to feel closer to Texas than the Bay Area
Hi Shelato, thanks for sharing your opinions, especially the demographic shifts. Yes I can see that. Man, if I had a chance to live and work in Seoul, I wouldn't even come here! I've visited South Korea a few times in the past (my ex was Korean) and can vouch the quality of life is great! Not as clean as say Tokyo (nowhere is really) but the common theme amongst both cities is that there was so much exciting nightlife, on the same level as NY or LA, both super safe at all hours of the day and very affordable. Frankly it was hard to come back to the US after experiencing that way of life, not to mention the outrageous cost of living here. If I wasn't married I'd probably be trying to make my way back there and just travel around Asia with occasional trips to the EU. Instead I'm considering moving to Rancho Cordova Anyways..
You brought up a interesting data point regarding ethnic hostility being tied to poverty. 110% agree and this is something the media hasn't focused on at all in that many of the anti-Asian attacks in SF and NY were by homeless people. So mental health is a missing part of the conversation. But I had also assumed that Rancho Cordova was just a sleepy suburb with no real difference between Rosemont, Rockville, Folsom and Rocklin. So there's more poverty there with a homeless population? Jeez, I had mistakenly assumed that the Korean shops were a filter of some baseline safety and standard of living. For reference, here in LA County, there's the Galleria Korean grocery store in Northridge and an H Mart in Torrance where both locations have million dollar homes nearby. But based on your post, it sounds like it might be "ghetto" there?
Also, just curious, have you ever visited the Dallas area, specifically Plano or surrounding areas? My simple logic is if a home by an H Mart in either Silicon Valley or Torrance goes for $1 million + and I can find the same home with standard of living by an H Mart in Dallas at $300k, I'm already up just by moving there. But as my wife is intent on staying in CA, I'm probably going to at least spend a few days checking out Sacramento to give it a shot.
Thanks!
Rancho Cordova has annexed a bunch of land slated for future development so you can find some development in Rancho Cordova that was built in the past 10 or 15 years. But the part of Rancho Cordova that has the Korean shops and groceries is in the part of Rancho Cordova that was built mostly in the 60's to the 80's. You also had Korean immigration to the region in the 1970's and 1980's but this generation of Koreans was not as well educated as the more current group of Korean immigrants. Specifically their English skills weren't as great. They were entrepreneurial and ambitious which was why they were starting all of these restaurants and shops and they really flocked to Rancho Cordova when rents got cheap after Mather AFB closed. If immigration had remained higher rates from Korea that we had in the 70's and 80's, then this area might have become majority Korean neighborhood. I think that was the other reason these Korean entrepreneurs came into to the area, but immigration rates fell as Korea got wealthier. The children and grand children of the group of immigrants might be ethnically Korean, but culturally they likely identify more with America than Korea.
The housing stock in the area where the Korean shops are located is probably more rental properties than owner occupied housing and the apartments in this part of Rancho Cordova haven't aged well. Its not ghetto, but more working class blue collar area. With a fair amount of retired military.
Its nicer and more economically stable than South Sac, which is going to have a lot more gang problems and a lot more shootings. But Rancho Cordova is not as nice as Roseville, Rocklin, nor Folsom either. The housing stock is much nicer and newer and the public schools have much better test scores in Roseville, Rocklin and Folsom. That is the other reason the more recent, much better educated Koreans prefer living out there vs Rancho Cordova. Roseville, Rocklin and Folsom are also places where the better educated second and third generation Koreans are moving to as well. There aren't the gangs nor the crime, schools are better.
To put things in terms of Los Angeles neighborhoods, Roseville, Rocklin and Folsom are are closer to Thousand Oaks and Agoura Hills. The older parts of Rancho Cordova is something between North Hollywood and Van Nuys and the newer parts of Rancho Cordova are probably something closer to Santa Clarita. South Sac is probably something like Gardena as you are getting closer to the 110 or maybe Bell Gardens. Sacramento doesn't have an Ocean, so there is no neighborhood in Sac exactly like Torrance or really any of the Beach towns.
I haven't been to Dallas. You didn't say what your budget is, but if my budget was $300k, I would be moving to Dallas. You can find houses in the Sacramento region for $300k, but not in neighborhoods I would want to live in. Around $475k, your options get much better and you could buy a home here in a neighborhood, I would want to live in and be willing to raise a family in.
Thanks again shelato for all the useful info and for sharing the history around the Korean migration (or lack of) in Sacramento. Very interesting and curious how that would've impacted the area if there was a larger Korean population there. Off topic but are there jimjilbangs in the area?
Your LA neighborhood comparison was VERY helpful and helps give me a better idea of what I'm dealing with although it's hard for me to picture Noho/Van Nuys right next to Santa Clarita. How about Rosemont or Citrus Heights? Also, I might not know Gardena well enough but if I'm not mistaken, there's a Ranch 99 there near the 110 and that's coincidentally when my wife first felt contractions for my kid after leaving Little Mary of Torrance hospital and had to go back. But I only know that street coming from Torrance on Hawthorne. My main point being it's not as bad as Bell Gardens IMO or I'm being way to biased by Asian food markets and memory of my son's birth haha.
Regarding gang problems and shootings, thanks for giving me that feedback. This is something I'm VERY concerned about for my son and want to keep him away from as much as possible, which is difficult to do since much of popular culture glorifies and romanticizes it thus normalizing it to some degree which makes me want to leave CA altogether. So I'm dealing with a double whammy. I've either got the gang culture on one end or potential anti-Asian racism on the other. Hawaii would be a nice middle option inbetween if it wasn't as expensive as SF or NY.
Lastly, regarding budget, I can do $400k-ish but was preferring low $300k to $350k as I'm self employed and would use the saved funds for my business runway while getting setup. I can work from home so can be anywhere really and have even considered upstate NY near Toronto or Montreal (you can get a HUGE house for $100k - $100k) but my wife can't stand the snow. So it's down to Sac or Dallas.
Oh, by any chance is there agriculture/farms out there? Not sure if anybody here has been keeping an eye on macro-economic events but if inflation does hit and if there's a food shortage, I've been inspired to try and grow our own food to be self sufficient if another Corona-virus like catastrophic event occurred.
There is an enormous amount of agriculture in the greater Sacramento Valley region, but they are large commercial/industrial farms that utilize traveling migrant workers, not small family farms, and they're generally pretty far from the big cities. You could probably find a place with some acreage on the urban perimeter, but not cheap, and it's a lot of work and investment, especially supplying it with water--if you want to try and grow your own food, start with a vegetable garden in your backyard and see how you like it. And to be honest, these days meth and opiate addiction is mostly a rural problem, so if you're trying to keep your kid away from those sorts of influences, maybe not the best choice. Small rural towns are also not an escape from things like gang problems and shootings, for much the same reason. And if you want more things to worry about, look up the "State of Jefferson" movement, which used to be just the northernmost bits of California but now includes a lot of radical right-wingers and white separatists in the mountains/foothills all the way down into Placer and El Dorado counties; maybe not Roseville or Granite Bay, but it sounds like those places might be out of your price range.
Citrus Heights is a relatively middle-class/working-class city. I grew up there and it's one of those very white areas I mentioned, based on my relatively frequent visits it has kind of gone downhill since I lived there; the major economic center is Sunrise Mall which was half vacant even before COVID, since incorporation they appear to have made some pedestrian improvements but it's still kind of an aging mid-century suburb. Haven't heard about any particular incidents in a while but not sure if it would be your best choice.
It still seems strange to say it but $300-400K isn't a whole lot in Sacramento's current housing market. Sure, it's not as expensive as NYC or SF, but we're getting pricier very rapidly; of course that may change rapidly too.
Thanks again shelato for all the useful info and for sharing the history around the Korean migration (or lack of) in Sacramento. Very interesting and curious how that would've impacted the area if there was a larger Korean population there. Off topic but are there jimjilbangs in the area?
Your LA neighborhood comparison was VERY helpful and helps give me a better idea of what I'm dealing with although it's hard for me to picture Noho/Van Nuys right next to Santa Clarita. How about Rosemont or Citrus Heights? Also, I might not know Gardena well enough but if I'm not mistaken, there's a Ranch 99 there near the 110 and that's coincidentally when my wife first felt contractions for my kid after leaving Little Mary of Torrance hospital and had to go back. But I only know that street coming from Torrance on Hawthorne. My main point being it's not as bad as Bell Gardens IMO or I'm being way to biased by Asian food markets and memory of my son's birth haha.
Regarding gang problems and shootings, thanks for giving me that feedback. This is something I'm VERY concerned about for my son and want to keep him away from as much as possible, which is difficult to do since much of popular culture glorifies and romanticizes it thus normalizing it to some degree which makes me want to leave CA altogether. So I'm dealing with a double whammy. I've either got the gang culture on one end or potential anti-Asian racism on the other. Hawaii would be a nice middle option inbetween if it wasn't as expensive as SF or NY.
Lastly, regarding budget, I can do $400k-ish but was preferring low $300k to $350k as I'm self employed and would use the saved funds for my business runway while getting setup. I can work from home so can be anywhere really and have even considered upstate NY near Toronto or Montreal (you can get a HUGE house for $100k - $100k) but my wife can't stand the snow. So it's down to Sac or Dallas.
Oh, by any chance is there agriculture/farms out there? Not sure if anybody here has been keeping an eye on macro-economic events but if inflation does hit and if there's a food shortage, I've been inspired to try and grow our own food to be self sufficient if another Corona-virus like catastrophic event occurred.
The Central Valley is the premiere agricultural region in the country. With irrigation you can pretty much grow anything here. That said the rural farming communities are mostly Hispanic with some white people thrown in. School test scores also tend to be lower. If you were looking for a rural community close to Sacramento I would probably look at Galt.
In Woodland Hills, there is the Fallbrook Center Mall and that kind of reminds me of Citrus Heights. Citrus Heights was mostly built out in the 60's 70's and 80's. It has a mall that isn't doing that well that kind of reminds me of the Fallbrook Mall. You have the sense that the neighborhood has seen better days in the past, but you aren't that worried if your wife went shopping alone with the kids. But a lot of the housing is from that same era in both places.
Rosemont kind of blends into the older part of Rancho Cordova and I don't see that much of a difference between the two.
Again I have never been to Texas , but I my understanding is that housing price levels are cheaper in Dallas than Sacramento. Houston is another big city that might also be even cheaper than Dallas. You might also want to investigate whether Houston or Dallas has the larger Korean community.
I also don't know how old your kids are, if they are not yet ready to attend public school, you might be able to put up with a cheaper house now and then move again later when the kids are ready to attend school. But my concern is that the areas of Sacramento where you find houses in the $300 to 350 price range are probably not where you want to be sending your kids to school. The low 400s you are still going to be looking for magnet programs that your kids may or may not get into because Asians usually are hurt more than helped in getting into these type programs to make space for more preferred minority groups.
Rancho Cordova is split by both the former Mather AFB and the old Aerojet Rocket manufacturing plant. The part between Aerojet and Mather and on both sides of Highway 50 is older, the part of Rancho Cordova between Aerojet, Mather and Grant Line Road is much newer, in a different school district.
As for jimjilbangs, the only one I am familiar with is this one. But that was only because I saw an ad for it at the KP Market bulletin board and didn't really know what it was. But others might have more recommendations here.
I will be honest, I would be a lot more worried about gang issues in the Sacramento region than Anti Asian issues in Sacramento region. A lot of the Asian directed hate attacks in Sacramento are Asian gangs vs other gangs. Sacramento has a fairly substantial Hmong population and the Hmong have created their own gang culture in Sacramento. This is also the reason I am saying, you want to be spending closer to $475 than 350 to make sure you are out of those types of neighborhoods where these types of problems exist.
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Anyways..
