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Well, considering the fact that the Saca Towers project didn't work, despite the fact that the city cut him many, many deals regarding permits and fees, plus an $11 million city subsidy, and he wasn't taking all the risk (he had several major investors including PERS) the folks who said it wouldn't work seem just a bit justified. As mentioned elsewhere, if we didn't have so many "landscrapers" in the suburbs, we would have a lot more skyscrapers downtown already. Private industry makes plenty of money building that sprawl, and measures like a Portland-style urban boundary would mess with their money-making strategy.
We're not a city of 2+ million people--more like half a million. There are about 2 million in the region, but it's pretty clear that you are talking about the city of Sacramento here, rather than the region. And there are a lot of differences--political, ethnic, and economic--between the city of Sacramento and its surrounding suburbs.
You are giving your opinion, which is in no way "objective" just because you're including the things you like as well as the things you don't like. There's nothing wrong with that--I do it plenty, for good or ill--but don't try to pass it off as objectivity.
Dude, there are 3 months out of the year that Sacramento averages 60 degrees or less as the high. Three months. That's it. November, December, and January. And out of those 3 months the lowest average low temp is January, with an average low around 39 degrees, which for most of the country is still pretty warm. Most people around the country wouldn't consider that much of a WINTER at all, let alone a fall.
Are you going to tell someone that moves from Chicago, Seattle, Salt Lake City (etc. etc.) that the heat here is the same everywhere else, i.e, we just get a summer heatwave and that's it?? That's pretty misleading. A lot of people like to experience definite seasonsal change, and Sacramento just doesn't really get that much of it.
To me, it feels as though summer lasts 6 months. To me, there is too much sun here in November, where I'd like to begin to feel like a change is coming. My second year here out of the 3 I've been here it was 80 and sunny in November. I was sick of it by that time.
This thread is meant to give people an unbiased view of the things they could expect, not to debate with people who already live here and want to defend the city.
And stating Sacramento has six months of summer IS biased. Summer, to most people, is warm. 60 degrees isn't warm, although it may be warmer than other locations at a given time of the year. I'm not really into arguing the relativity of it based on the climate of other cities, as someone from Phoenix may think summers here aren't summers because we have a lot of 50-something nights in July, which is often what they see in January.
I tell people Sacramento has a inland Mediterranean climate, and to be prepared for some very hot days in the summer and to keep some winter clothes on hand for December.
An unbiased view takes the variety of climates across the country into consideration. Not a few cities from higher altitudes and latitudes.
And stating Sacramento has six months of summer IS biased. Summer, to most people, is warm. 60 degrees isn't warm, although it may be warmer than other locations at a given time of the year. I'm not really into arguing the relativity of it based on the climate of other cities, as someone from Phoenix may think summers here aren't summers because we have a lot of 50-something nights in July, which is often what they see in January.
I tell people Sacramento has a inland Mediterranean climate, and to be prepared for some very hot days in the summer and to keep some winter clothes on hand for December.
An unbiased view takes the variety of climates across the country into consideration. Not a few cities from higher altitudes and latitudes.
I took the variety of climates accross the country into account. I said there isn't much of a fall season here, and there isn't. If you have lived in any area of the country that actually HAS a fall season, you would know that.
Dude, we have 90+ degree nights in the summer here that do not let up. How many areas of the country have that? Not many.
That's being objective.
As for you comment regarding the Towers, please name me one developer that does not have an investor backing him. I would know, I look at these type of development partnerships EVERY SINGLE DAY.
It's flat dude. It's hot. There is a lack of seasonality here. PERIOD. Go look outside in November if you disagree, then go take a trip to Oregon, Ohio, New York, Christ, insert region of the country.
Well, considering the fact that the Saca Towers project didn't work, despite the fact that the city cut him many, many deals regarding permits and fees, plus an $11 million city subsidy, and he wasn't taking all the risk (he had several major investors including PERS) the folks who said it wouldn't work seem just a bit justified. As mentioned elsewhere, if we didn't have so many "landscrapers" in the suburbs, we would have a lot more skyscrapers downtown already. Private industry makes plenty of money building that sprawl, and measures like a Portland-style urban boundary would mess with their money-making strategy.
We're not a city of 2+ million people--more like half a million. There are about 2 million in the region, but it's pretty clear that you are talking about the city of Sacramento here, rather than the region. And there are a lot of differences--political, ethnic, and economic--between the city of Sacramento and its surrounding suburbs.
You are giving your opinion, which is in no way "objective" just because you're including the things you like as well as the things you don't like. There's nothing wrong with that--I do it plenty, for good or ill--but don't try to pass it off as objectivity.
Who cares??? Do you think someone moving here really wants to debate the difference between a metro poplulation and the population within the city limits?
So ok, the citizens wanted to see Calpers AND the developer fail. Big f'ing difference.
Please stop turning this into a battle between someone you perceive is slighting your city. I said some good things about it, and I listed some negatives. Sorry if you think it is paradise on earth. It's just not.
I grew up in Iowa, and, after graduate school, lived in MN, MI, IN, OH, VA (DC to Richmond) and MS (Jackson) before moving here in April 2007.
Four seasons are *highly* overrated. Both of my parents in Des Moines died in 2009; Dad in June and Mom in December. Neither death was unexpected but Mom lived with a Stage IV lung cancer diagnosis for five months before dying on New Year's Eve.
I had to go in to sign the cremation papers that Saturday (obviously, everything was closed on New Year's Day, which was Friday). Her cremation was prearranged but there's always legal crap, right?
Anyway, when I got up on Saturday morning, it was 17 degrees below zero. I grew up in this crap, lived there until 1987. While this was the worst winter (by far) they'd had since 1985, mid-continental climates suck. Its horribly cold and horribly hot with about 3 weeks of decent weather between those seasons.
I waited until it had 'warmed' to *only* 8 below before starting the car and driving over to the funeral home. Those of you that aren't old enough to remember cars before fuel injection - when cars had carbs on 'em - don't truly appreciate what a boon fuel injection (and modern batteries) are to ensuring that your car starts in this kind of weather. I remember many nights of getting up at 2 am and starting the cars - and letting them run for a 1/2 hour - so that they would start the next day after the sun came up.
I wasn't in the Twin Cities during the winter - just for about 2 1/2 months one summer - but the winters in Battle Creek, Indianapolis, Dayton, DC-Fredericksburg-Richmond were all milder than Iowa. We did get some ridiculous snow totals in F'burg off of NE'ster snowstorms in 1996 - I had 36" and 28" in my backyard, respectively, from two separate storms - it never got nearly as cold as it does in Des Moines most of the winter.
Jackson doesn't really have winter, but it can drop into the upper 20s at night.
Sacramento has *great* weather. Even when we have a high pressure blocking the Delta breeze, that 105F doesn't feel nearly as bad as low 90s with humidity does in any of the other places I've listed (nor does it feel as hot as Phoenix, where I attended a conference last August). Winter is pretty much a snap, the biggest issue is finding the right coat weight so you don't overheat after the sun comes up in the morning (even if its overcast and raining).
There's nothing wrong with places like Des Moines or the other listed cities as places to live, and, on the whole, they have (at least the Midwestern ones do) far less social problems and stress than cities on the coasts. But I can tell you this winter that my friends in Des Moines were texting me daily about how bad the winter was and how they are so moving out when their kids finish high school... and they're going someplace sunnier and warmer during the winter.
As far as the Kings go, I'll help 'em pack and ensure that the doorknob doesn't hit them in the butt. Pro sports aren't what makes places like NYC, LA, SF, Boston, etc. great, its frosting on the cake. I'd much rather be riding my bike, running, or doing some outdoor activity than sitting in a sports venue watching overpaid prima donnas not play hard because its not the playoffs from the nosebleed seats.
Who cares??? Do you think someone moving here really wants to debate the difference between a metro poplulation and the population within the city limits?
It is a big difference--if you're counting the whole Sacramento MSA in this discussion, then "Sacramento" (as a metro region) is decidedly NOT flat--it includes Placer and El Dorado Counties, which includes the highest peaks of the Sierra Nevada mountain range!
Quote:
So ok, the citizens wanted to see Calpers AND the developer fail. Big f'ing difference.
Please stop turning this into a battle between someone you perceive is slighting your city. I said some good things about it, and I listed some negatives. Sorry if you think it is paradise on earth. It's just not.
Please stop thinking that I consider this city paradise on earth--there are plenty of problems here, believe me. You're welcome to your opinions, just don't try to pass them off as "objective." Some of what you consider negatives (like the heat and the mild winters, the lack of hills) other consider positives, and vice versa. You are of course entitled to your opinions, and there are certainly folks out there who would agree with them--they just aren't "objective."
As to weather--I was born in Chicago. The spring and fall are very pretty, but I'd take a Sacramento summer over a humid, sticky Chicago summer--and I'd sure as heck take a rainy, cool Sacramento winter over a snow-up-to-your-eyeballs-while-standing-on-a-ladder Chicago winter!
As to Saca's project, it wasn't people's opinions of him that made him fail but the market realities--despite considerable financial assistance (some of which wandered well outside the legal or the appropriate, according to the various building department scandals) from the city of Sacramento. He failed on his own merits--or lack of same. It wasn't some mysterious wave of attitude from Sacramentans that somehow destroyed his plan.
That is true. It depends upon what you are used to and what feels comfortable to you. I guess if someone is moving to Sac from the midwest, maybe this would be an easy transition? I thought it was something people that are contemplating moving here should know about, since you don't find a whole lotta scenic pictures of really flat areas. Not sure if it is desireable to most people.
I have to laugh at the "flat" thing. There are mountains in the distance and foothills in the near suburbs...isn't that good enough!?
< from Chicago.
Personally, I too feel claustrophobic in too many hills. I like the mountains in the distance, a horizon. It has a a freeing feeling to it.
I have to laugh at the "flat" thing. There are mountains in the distance and foothills in the near suburbs...isn't that good enough!?
< from Chicago.
Personally, I too feel claustrophobic in too many hills. I like the mountains in the distance, a horizon. It has a a freeing feeling to it.
Thanks for mentioning this--one reason why I wish Sacramento had more residential towers is that you can really only get a sense of how big Sacramento is from the air--and once you're up high, you can see the mountains--on a clear day the Sierras look really dramatic to the west, and Mount Diablo is clearly visible to the southeast. Looking out at the city, outside of the central business district it looks like a forest with little bits of city poking out. It's actually kind of impressive.
And as much as it is used as a bittersweet thing, there are plenty of people who are far, far more than two hours from either the mountains or the ocean--much of the Midwest is a very long drive from either. But, as the above poster notes, there's a certain liberating feeling to broad skies and wide open spaces. The Sacramento Delta may be flat, but I dare anyone to say it isn't pretty.
Thanks for mentioning this--one reason why I wish Sacramento had more residential towers is that you can really only get a sense of how big Sacramento is from the air--and once you're up high, you can see the mountains--on a clear day the Sierras look really dramatic to the west, and Mount Diablo is clearly visible to the southeast. Looking out at the city, outside of the central business district it looks like a forest with little bits of city poking out. It's actually kind of impressive.
And the Sierra Nevada to the east is even more dramatic than the sierras to the west!
Uhh, wait, I think Mt Diablo is in the sierras to the SOUTHWEST!
Sorry, I had to pick on you for this. Now go to REI and buy yourself a compass.
And the Sierra Nevada to the east is even more dramatic than the sierras to the west!
Uhh, wait, I think Mt Diablo is in the sierras to the SOUTHWEST!
Sorry, I had to pick on you for this. Now go to REI and buy yourself a compass.
See, that's why I stick to cities most of the time. Heck of a time with navigation in the country.
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