NON Mormon, NON White OPINION of Salt Lake City Utah after 1 month (Park City: taxes, living in)

[Lamborgotti]

Originally Posted by doctorbombeii

I didn't call people racist left and right, don't exaggerate for effect. I mentioned racism and provided some examples.

Making excuses for myself....Playing the victim card...what are you talking about? Where am I playing the victim? I'm just stating my experience in the 4 weeks that I have lived here. Nobody's crying...just giving my opinion which might actually help somebody.

I don't think I exaggerated at all. You mentioned multiple examples of what you considered to be racism (people treating you differently, looking down their nose at you, etc.). This is also where you play the victim. In my opinion it was presumptuous of you to label their actions racist. You stated that you weren't sure, but you still mentioned the examples and presumed that you are most likely a victim of racism. You even went as far as to suggest a motive (which, btw, is total nonsense) for people's 'racist' attitudes toward you. Making on observation is harmless, but you went a step further and made assumptions, then suggested a sinister motive. That, to me, is where the line is crossed.

I'm trying to educate myself about the people as I've read as much as I can stand from the book of mormon on various websites. I watch the informative series "History of the Saints" and others. I'm not going to sit in a state of ignorance...I could have done that back home. I'm looking for understanding ANYWHERE that I go...you don't have to try to make me to be some ignorant person. I'm a truth seeker without your guidance.

What am I misinformed about LDS beliefs, history, and practices? Please correct me where I'm wrong. People might actually learn something. Don't hold back because I am sure there are many misinformed people out there. Here's your chance to educate us.

> Content that was "too religious" sent via PM. <

I suggest reading about the history of ZCMI to understand why City Creek Center exists. In the early days of Salt Lake City, the LDS church was the de facto government, and naturally responded to the needs of the community by creating businesses that were necessary but lacking in the private sector. That is why the church has owned and created hospitals, media outlets, a life insurance company, banks, farms, a department store, thrift stores, employment centers, welfare centers, etc. As the needs of the community change, so have the church's assets, many of which have since been privatized. The church's role in City Creek evolved from, originally, a department store with the purpose of protecting mormon vendors, to the present, a shopping mall meant to revitalize downtown and combat urban decay.

As for the wealth disparity, well, you pretty much explained that one yourself. It's everywhere. Park Avenue, the richest street in the country, leads to the Bronx, the poorest congressional district. Is Salt Lake particularly bad? I don't really think so. If the most luxurious retailer we have is Nordstrom, we're still far from the likes of other metros. And for your information, the homeless people you see in Pioneer Park are there by choice. There is a homeless shelter a block away. There are many shelters, food banks, and other resources available to the poor. Enough to accommodate the homeless population in SLC. You can lead a horse to water but you sure can't make it drink. The fact of the matter is that the LDS church spends far more than any other entity in the community on welfare programs for the poor. Your portrayal of it as a greedy, wealth-mongerer just doesn't befit the church, IMO.

Next time, if I'm misinformed about anything, please enlighten me. Spend your time elaborating on what you think someone said wrong and why you believe it's wrong. Try to help them understand without bashing them. Don't twist words for effect. Don't diminish my perspective, or my documentation of it...that's oppressive.

Sorry if you felt your perspective was diminished. But I don't think I 'twisted' your words or 'bashed' you. I simply call it like I see it. I'm not the warm fuzzy hospitable type, nor do I aspire to be, but I'm certainly not "oppressive."[/quote]

[slcslc]

@Katydid: And you must be a Poe fan?

[brottishluv]

Hi,

I enjoyed reading about your observations. I am a 27 yr old white female living downtown. I left the church about 5 years ago. I love Salt Lake City.

I have lived in Utah for all of my life except for a year I spent in Las Vegas. Immediately after moving to Las Vegas I was shopping in a grocery store and bumped into someone. I apologized and the other person assured me it was OK. I was surprised because if this scenario happened in Utah I probably wouldn't have received a response at all.

I don't think it's a big deal that people here don't like talking to strangers. It's just the way people are and it has nothing to do with the people they aren't talking to. There are places you can go where the people are friendly and people want to talk.

I find it so strange that the church is brought up so much in your post as an explanation for the way people are here. Salt Lake City is only 50% mormon and that number includes non-actives (like me), so it's really a lot less than that. I don't have a car, walk and take public transportation everyday to work. I always see people sipping on coffee, bringing a case of beer home, doing whatever they want. There are the obvious members too, but so what? I grew up in a town that was at least 95% mormon.... if you want others to look down on you for not being what they are go live in Utah county....I don't think this really exists in Salt Lake City. I work in a very conservative workplace and I think the non-members outweigh the members. I just don't understand how you can say the church's history of denying blacks priesthood is responsible for the way you are being treated in a city that isn't even dominated by that religion.

I don't feel racism is a problem here in the city. Maybe in different parts of the state where there are ignorant old people or rednecks. Out of all of the people I have met in Salt Lake City not one has said a racist remark to me. I think it has more to do with not knowing how to act due to lack of exposure.

I don't like the commercialism the church has brought downtown either. I love downtown and all the local food places but I stay clear of that mall and try to stick to locally owned places. One of my favorite resturaunts downtown on main street, Bayleaf, closed it's doors because of the drastic change of the type of people that were going to their place since the mall opened. It just wasn't the type of people they wanted to attract so they opened up a different project in Sugar House.


Anyway....I wanted to add a little bit......

[kaytidid]

Originally Posted by slcslc

@Katydid: And you must be a Poe fan?

Actually, I am a Poe fan!

[slcslc]

Originally Posted by kaytidid

Actually, I am a Poe fan!

I figured, since you "loved with a love that was more than love."

[kletter1mann]

Originally Posted by brottishluv

I have lived in Utah for all of my life except for a year I spent in Las Vegas. Immediately after moving to Las Vegas I was shopping in a grocery store and bumped into someone. I apologized and the other person assured me it was OK. I was surprised because if this scenario happened in Utah I probably wouldn't have received a response at all.

This is really quite remarkable if I'm understanding you correctly. I've traveled all over the USA and lived in Asia and Europe as well. What you experienced in Vegas is what you'd experience practically everywhere in the world with maybe a few exceptions Asia (China for example). In my mind that makes UT a major outlier, especially in the context of common American culture and practices. Completely ignoring people you do don't know in such interactions would be rude anyplace else. Your surprise in Vegas is about what you could expect everyplace except, apparently, Utah. This comes up on this board again and again, and the natives all claim it's not personal, that's just how people are, peopple really are nice, etc. For once I'd like to hear somebody admit that there really IS a peculiar, pravailing social interactional style that's unique to UT and that it's perceived as rude or offputting to nonnatives.

[SouthernBelleInUtah]

Well, I am sorry but as a non-native non-LDS I did not see this peculiar social interaction style. In cashier lines, in speaking to store employees, in speaking to bank employees, in speaking to strangers on the street when my dog got out, in speaking to strangers in coffee shops, etc. - I found the communication to be friendly and helpful.

[kletter1mann]

Originally Posted by SouthernBelleInUtah

Well, I am sorry but as a non-native non-LDS I did not see this peculiar social interaction style. In cashier lines, in speaking to store employees, in speaking to bank employees, in speaking to strangers on the street when my dog got out, in speaking to strangers in coffee shops, etc. - I found the communication to be friendly and helpful.

Actually I haven't noticed it either, though my experience is limited. In fact, I've often been more annoyed by over-chatty, over-smiley cashiers etc when I'm in a hurry (which is pretty much always). Yet this theme seems to come up over and over, again and again. Puzzling.

[kaytidid]

I can see it both ways. If *I* am outgoing and chatty with cashiers, ect then they certainly are right back. However, if I am not feeling particularly social or am in a hurry and not chatty myself, that is what I find.

[kavm]

Originally Posted by kletter1mann

Actually I haven't noticed it either, though my experience is limited. In fact, I've often been more annoyed by over-chatty, over-smiley cashiers etc when I'm in a hurry (which is pretty much always). Yet this theme seems to come up over and over, again and again. Puzzling.

It has been friendly interactions all around in our experience. I fail to notice awkwardness in social interactions that the OP wrote about and someone else agreed with. It is possible others are more perceptive, that they are coming across a different segment of population or that the issue lies in their own subject position and they are projecting their hyper-sensitivity on to others. I, for one, find this a perfectly normal place - better in natural beauty in than a lot of others; nice people - even if they do not look like me; politics that could be more in line with my disposition.