NON Mormon, NON White OPINION of Salt Lake City Utah after 1 month (Sandy: living, floor)

[stycotl]

Originally Posted by doctorbombeii

Ok, for those who do not know, Utah is the DESERT.

City-data.com probably mentioned that somewhere on the website...

Utah is beautiful, but it's a different type of beautiful than I expected.

That's why I keep moving back here. I go away for a few years and then end up missing the mountains and the desert.

I swear I thought I was on Mars.

Utah deserts have been used very often to simulate Mars, not just for Hollywood, but for NASA and other scientific venturs.

Oh yeah...the bikes!! Everybody rides bikes here!

Don't know about that one. I've lived in other areas that cater to a lot more bike riders than slc. But whatever. Glad you like bikes.

The city is very clean... But like observing a wealthy, picture perfect American family from the inside, it is far from perfect...

Ok... Would you rather a dirty city? Would you rather that a city take care of all of its social problems before it is allowed to clean its streets, so as not to appear two-faced to your sensitive nature?

Again, I am from NC...so I'm used to hospitality. Southern Hospitality. No hospitality here...just awkwardness. A city full of social awkwardness.

First of all, I have lived in NC (and virginia, georgia and florida), and I didn't find the south to be all that hospitable compared to other places I have lived. On the contrary, to a large degree, I found a lot of people resistant to strangers, differences in religion or political values, or any other kind of change (ironic that these are the same accusations leveled at Utahns and Mormons, by these same people). Obviously your mileage may vary, your experiences were different than mine, etc. but you'd better realize that your anecdotal experiences are no more valid or invalid or insightful or uninsightful than my own.

Regardless of what others have to say about the people being so nice and this and that....they're not.

Ouch. Guess you haven't realized that. Way to invalidate the experiences of everyone in the world who has a different opinion than yourself. You have pretty much undermined any credibility you may have had earlier in the conversation as a "very aware, sensitive, and observant" individual.

Could be because of my stature (6'4", 210lbs). Might be something about my vibe or aura that I'm not aware of. Maybe because they have never seen my face in church. Could be because of something else. I might simply expect too much.

Could be because of your attitude, baggage and preconceived notions. Just sayin'...

but generally speaking, people aren't that nice or outgoing to strangers and that's that. Don't let anyone on this site or elsewhere tell you any different

In case you didn't catch it last time, this is what a total, blanket invalidation looks like. "I'm right and anyone that disagrees with me is wrong. Oh yeah, and neener neener."

In my opinion, it is.

You could stand to read up on the difference between opinion and fact, and don't let anyone tell you different.

I sincerely think that some of these people around here are afraid of what's different.

I agree with that. You think slc is bad, wait until you spend any significant amount of time in utah county. I'm sick and tired of people quoting Glen Beck in church as if his conspiracy theories had anything to do with church doctrine.

Personally, I embrace diversity...read the title.

Judging by what I've already seen of you, you have your own prejudices and intolerances, especially for anyone with opinions that differ from your own. We are all intolerant of some group or another, no matter how aware we pride ourselves on being.

I think alot of the people here look down their noses at me.

I'm confident you do see that no matter where you go here. And in some cases, it is probably a valid observation. But in the rest, I'm putting my money on your own prejudices getting in the way of a sincere desire to get to know the people here.

I have a feeling why, but I don't have any concrete evidence. Hell, I don't want any concrete evidence.

Dude, I already knew you wouldn't want any evidence either way. It sucks when the way the actual world works refutes your preconceived intolerances about somebody.

Really, the only thing that I can conclude is that [allegedly] the book of mormon says that people with darker skin are the descendents of Cain of the Bible and are cursed by God or some shi*t like that. That was the reason for denying Blacks into priesthood (until the ban was lifted in the 70's allegedly because the church was going to lose its tax exempt status). So, racism is embedded into this fluke of a religion and that religion built this big beautiful city. Why would I expect anything different? And yes I know that Joseph Smith and some others were avid abolitionalists, but I'm speaking on what I experience daily.

The church has definite had a less than perfect record when it comes to racism--even though as you mentioned, it started out with very abolitionist principles. But then Brigham young took the reigns and took it back 100 years. Sure, he did a lot of other things that were pretty cool (I already mentioned how much I love the state of utah), but he also institutionalized a lot of his prejudices.

Still, as long as we are now judging the church based on its past, what kind of grade did the "hospitable south" get where racism is concerned? What about all of those churches that are in the hospitable south--i suppose that none of them had any racist tendencies back in the good old days when racism was what all the cool kids were doing?

Anyway, times are changing, man. Get on board. Most people in utah couldn't care less about your skin color. Sure, there will be the stupid comments and questions that you get from naive people who hardly ever see blacks, but there isn't a lot of resentment or dislike of blacks in general. If you see it as often as you seem to believe you do, smart money says you are a little over sensitive.

Rapper/quasi movie star Ludacris was here last week and over 40,000 people showed up. It broke the record. Sooo...white bred, picture perfect city hosts down south rapper singing about weed and hoes in every area code and gets biggest crowd ever?

Also, I was riding my bike and saw a rap concert downtown. Summer Jam I think. This was in close proximity of the temple. These rappers are rapping about weed and other deconstructive things with lyrics resonating throughout downtown, while really really young girls (14-15?) are dressed slutty to the max with camel toes showing...in a city that was built on religious beliefs. These polar opposites left me really confused and feeling awkward.

You do realize that most of the salt lake valley is not Mormon, right? And that a great number of those that are Mormon are not practicing? Did you expect that the church would make it illegal to partake of entertainment that they don't approve of? Not that I want to give buttars or ruzicka any ideas...

I had this huge farm raised looking guy at the concert (out of the blue) come up to me and my visiting [Black] friend and shake our hands, but it was as though he was saying that he gave me permission to be there and we weren't going to have any problems. awkward

Weird. That is what I expect from some utah county people. Or from overly paranoid minorities that come to utah already expecting problems.

Why the hell does a church need a property group and why was it so expensive? How about building something a little less pretty and use the money left over to build a homeless shelter? If I were truly a follower of God's word, there is no way that I could look at all of those homeless people on the streets and in Pioneer Park and go to church (with a shiny gold statue on the top) across the street from Nordstroms and the Cheesecake Factory...that the friggin church built. Now, if that is not 2 polar opposites in ideology I don't know what is. Awkward.

The church thinks it is smart to invest in property, you know, to do something intelligent with the members' money. None of it goes to the leadership. And before you get too accusatory, the church is one of the largest charitable bodies in the nation, feeding and sheltering the poor included. Is there room for improvement? Certainly. Is the church growing and adapting to fill those holes? you bet. Are we ever going to please everyone with how we spend our money? Nope. Is it worth trying? Nope.

It reminds me of riding down peachtree st in Atlanta on a Sunday where this cop stopped traffic to allow a couple to cross the street from their {Baptist} church to the parking lot to get in their brand new Bentley. If you have ever been to Atlanta, you know that there are plenty of homeless people on peachtree. How the hell can you get in your $250k car that you drove to church and ignore the homeless people that you drive by in your house on wheels? I'm passing judgement and I do not believe that is what Jesus would have done lol.

Yeah, you show me when one of the apostles is seen cruising down state street in a rolls and I'll entertain your accusations a little longer.

Apparently, there is a gang culture out here. Supposedly, lots of people in Northern CA with 2 strikes move out here to do dirt. There's an episode of Gangland about it. I can't tell, but I won't rub any Hispanics or Polynesians the wrong way, that's for sure.

Yep, beautiful slc has its own problems. Gangs are one of the reasons I left slc for the rednecks of utah county.

And to the rest of your statement, that sounds mildly racist.

People seem to be really health conscious as there are a vast array of good grocery stores. There are also some really good looking restaurants, but I'll never eat anywhere in this town where I cannot see someone prep my food...as a result of the vibe I feel that I listed above.

No one is going to spit in your food unless you are asking for it. Chill out.

Lastly and MOST importantly, if you are not a sheep, not LDS, not white and you don't know anyone out here and you are socially sensitive....there are probably better, more receptive places in this country to reside.

Insults and name-calling? I thought you were aware and sensitive and observant enough to realize that would be a bad tactic.

Much, much better places. Like ANYWHERE on the east coast. Again, this is my personal opinion.

Anywhere? Because ALL of the overpopulated, hate-filled, crime-ridden areas of the east coast are so much better than the social weirdness that is utah. You have some weird priorities.

I have a low tolerance for racism and you should too.

True, but you should have a low tolerance for preemptive racism and paranoia too.

People tend to want to remain "pure" so interracial couples are few and far between (relative to the east coast). I've seen less than 5 interracial couples and I'm talking where one has darker skin than the other, not Asian/white couples etc.

There are also fewer nonwhite people here, so of course there are fewer interracial couples. Don't think that has nearly as much to do with a desire for "purity" as you claim.

My experience may be greatly varied from someone else's view and is liable to change...but i highly doubt it as I am very aware, sensitive, and observant.

Of course, as amply proven by your posts.

Don't let a non black person chime in and say, "I have a black friend or am friends with an interracial couple and they don't have a problem at all and they love it here." That's bologna. They could love it, but somebody had to make some sacrifices...whether sacrificing ethnicity, awareness, care or whatever...

Again, your opinions. And when you have to preface your opinion with, "don't let anone tell you otherwise," then you are probably wrong. Not to mention your bar-raising fallacies. You talk about not letting non-blacks chime in and refute our opinions, because of obviously their opinions don't matter to you. so when an actual non-white gives you their opinion, you dismiss it as unaware.

So basically, you wanted to come in here and rant without letting anyone with a differing opinion get their chance to say anything. Good luck in life with that mentality.

If I could have you listen to one piece of advice I could give, it would be to give people the benefit of the doubt; we shouldn't assume that because someone comes across as awkward or oblivious that they are therefore racist or mean. Sometimes they are just dumbasses that can't relate well to others. And sometimes we are the dumbasses that refuse to relate to them. It's all about perspective.

[MisfitBanana]

Originally Posted by doctorbombeii

I think you misinterpreted...I did not bring up the Mormons any more than I had to. I know that SLC is 50% Mormon...I did my research...I said that already. 50% of people are is a significant amount of people. If you had to work & live with 50% unlike yourself, you'd realize that. And how could Momon's perspective & ideals not be influential on the city that they settled & developed? Especially, when they still make up 50% of the city...pssss...I'm not gonna push that issue anymore....I wasn't even blaming them...I was looking for some understanding to make sense of this social awkwardness.

The social awkwardness, in my opinion, is that most people here don't have to try.

I grew up Mormon in Oakland, CA. I stopped going to church when I was 18. When I was 27, I moved to SLC and I've lived here for six years. I've heard from a bunch of Mormons (I work at a school and talk to a lot of students who have recently moved here) who all say that they felt unwelcome and uncomfortable at the Mormon wards they went to. They had to "shop around" wards to try and find one that they felt comfortable at. My own experience is similar - my daughter attends church while I don't. When I went to the ward Christmas party (where my daughter was playing Mary in the nativity), no one came up to me to welcome me, no one started a conversation with me. I tried to start conversations with multiple people - they would politely respond with a short sentence, then immediately turn away from me and start conversing with someone else. Having grown up in a super friendly ward, I was shocked at how unwelcoming people were.

Growing up in Oakland, it was ingrained in us to be welcoming to someone at church who we didn't recognize. It was a goal to make new people feel comfortable. The reason wasn't just to be nice people, but also to make the person want to come back, or at least leave having had a good experience at the Mormon church. We were basically taught to be sociable.

But in Utah, where most people are Mormon and where Mormons have dominated the culture, Mormons know they don't have to try. Why worry about being welcoming and what people's attitudes towards your church will be, when your church dominates the area? Why try to entice people to check out your church with your friendliness, when you know that everyone will become acquainted with "the church" in some aspect anyway?

That's my feelings/opinions on it, at least. Utah Mormons don't have to bother trying - they know they're in the majority. They also know that you'll either become a part of the club (by attending and regularly participating in church) or you won't. If you do, they'll end up meeting you whether they try or not. If you don't, they don't really care about becoming well acquainted with you - after all, they have all their Mormon friends and their Mormon activities (which, along with work and family obligations, will occupy all their time). Those who aren't Mormon (or practicing) and grew up here, will still have grown up in this culture, and those who move here will assimilate over time.

[brottishluv]

Originally Posted by doctorbombeii

I don't care what your response is to MY OPINION, & PERSPECTIVE....about whether you agree with it or not. Write your own thread about your perspective.

Woah. People start threads to start discussions. How can people respond without using their perspectives? I don't think that's even possible.

If you did not want people to post anything that contains their opinion or their perspective than maybe you should have put that in your original post in all caps because that is quite an odd expectation.

[Lamborgotti]

Originally Posted by doctorbombeii

And please don't PM me anymore a copies of your responses....that's just a little self-indulged and egotistical

Are you serious? You ASKED me to inform you, and I did, in the only way that was possible. So much for wanting to be educated and increase your understanding. You're the one sounding self-indulged, picking and choosing which replies are good enough for your thread. Sorry I ever responded. If you can't stand behind your own words, don't post in public forums.

[11thHour]

Originally Posted by SLCPUNK

I don't necessarily agree with everything you said, but "Social awkwardness" really hit the nail on the head. It's very true.

I agree with this. If there's one thing the OP nailed, it's the social awkwardness of this place. I have lived all over this country, and by far this is the most socially bizarre place. Overall, the native population seems wary, untrusting even, of others who are different. There's a shallowness and obsession with appearances or idealism that runs deep here.

Anyway OP, thanks for your impressions. I hope you are able to stick it out, and perhaps in your own little way be a force of positive change here. We need it. So many come here and get scared off.

PS try some hikes when it starts cooling down. I can count on one hand how many times I've seen a black person while hiking here. Hikers are usually a friendly bunch.

[kletter1mann]

Originally Posted by 11thHour

I agree with this. If there's one thing the OP nailed, it's the social awkwardness of this place. I have lived all over this country, and by far this is the most socially bizarre place. Overall, the native population seems wary, untrusting even, of others who are different. There's a shallowness and obsession with appearances or idealism that runs deep here.

But what IS this awkwardness?

From all the stuff here it just sounds like a widespread, pervasive, culturally ingrained lack of social skills in interactions with anybody outside your immediate social group (family, close friends). And that it occurs in some of the most unlikely places, e.g., even failing to welcome or integrate LDS newcomers to their new church. And that anyplace else this behavior would be interpretted as rudeness.

Maybe nobody is taught, or learns, what would be basic social skills anyplace else because their lives have been so cirucumscribed for so long by the immediacy of family and church? And this behavior has become inculturated? Is that the repeated refrain of "being so wrapped up in church" etc?

So how does it manifest itself? What kind of interaction would I have to have (or seek out!) to experience it? I haven't seen it in the course of shopping and just hanging out. Do I need to do something in which a newcomer would reasonably expect to be welcomed and acknowledged?

[Katzpur]

Originally Posted by doctorbombeii

Thanks, that means alot!

This was your last post to me, and I'm trying to figure out your point in posting it. Rather than trying to second-guess you, I'll just ask you to explain why you felt the need for the sarcasm. You said you wondered what others thought of your comments. I'd have answered earlier, but I was out of town.

Originally Posted by doctorbombeii

1. I'm not Mormon...I don't claim any religion (even though I believe in God)
2. I'm not White...I am a blend and look like a blend of a few races (complexion & facial features), but I identify myself as Black.
3. I'm from a small city of 50k people in NC
4. I have lived all over NC, Atlanta GA, Houston TX, SLC UT

Nice to meet you. I'm Mormon, white, life-long Salt Laker.

Ok, for those who do not know, Utah is the DESERT. I was hoping to escape some of the heat from back home, but it is HOT here. No humidity, so the heat doesn't feel 3 dimensional like back home, but the sun is HOT. It sits on your skin and tries its best to penetrate your cells to get to your bone marrow. Even though it cools down quickly, it's an intense heat.

Yes, Utah is the desert. You got that part right. We're approaching the tail-end of one of the hottest summers in our 166-year history.

I wonder how the winter will be?

Cold. Snowy. No humidity. Probably not as bad as in many parts of the country, but worse than in others.

Utah is beautiful, but it's a different type of beautiful than I expected. I lived in the cool, green Appalachian Mountains for a few years. This place (salt lake valley) is not cool or green. It's the desert and some mountains. Oh yea, and that lake. I drove here and came via I-70. When we crossed the state line, I swear I thought I was on Mars. For a couple of hours. It looks like the land before time. I could imagine that if dinosaurs actually existed, their remains would be well preserved in this lifeless land. But God, made it and I appreciate it and am thankful for the chance to experience it.

Utah is hugely varied. Northern Utah and Southern Utah could hardly be more different. Both are beautiful; neither are like any place east of the Mississippi. You've already discovered that.

When I finally reached Salt Lake after 3 days of driving, I found out that the city (and surrounding cities) is much bigger than I thought. I checked wikipedia and google street view, but was not prepared for this sprawl. And this was actually a good thing. So, Salt Lake has some girth to it.

Lots of people hate the sprawl. I'm fine with it. I wish there was a little more to the downtown area, but it's growing, too. For a city its size, there's lot to do here.

There's a good proportion of the women here that I find attractive.

Hmmm. Interesting.

People are really, really actively engaged in all types of physical activity.

Physically active people do seem to be drawn to this area.

Most of the streets are on a numbered grid system in relation to the temple, which seems that it would be easy to navigate, but it took some getting used to. There are many, many stoplights. I live downtown and my school is about 6.5mi away. Takes me 25 minutes. I can ride my bicycle there in about the same amount of time.

Actually, all of the streets are on a numbered grid system -- even the ones with regular street names. Salt Lake City was definitely a planned community.

Oh yeah...the bikes!! Everybody rides bikes here! It's so cool to see so many people on bikes and it makes drivers very cautious of their presence. Bike lanes are prevalent and well thought out. I've seen "Bike Valet" at events for crying out loud! Skateboards are very common as well.

Yup.

The city is very clean (where I live) and everything around the temple seems new and crisp. Especially City Creek, and the Gateway. No litter or anything. Just appears to be a perfect little city. But like observing a wealthy, picture perfect American family from the inside, it is far from perfect...

You are absolutely right. It is -- like any other city in the entire country -- far from perfect.

Again, I am from NC...so I'm used to hospitality. Southern Hospitality.

You say you're from the South and that you're Black. So, there's a lot of "hospitality" between Blacks and Whites in the South these days, huh? When did that all come about?

No hospitality here...just awkwardness. A city full of social awkwardness.

This is perhaps the most interesting of all your comments. I'm just not quite sure what you mean by that.

Regardless of what others have to say about the people being so nice and this and that....they're not. Could be because of my stature (6'4", 210lbs). Might be something about my vibe or aura that I'm not aware of. Maybe because they have never seen my face in church. Could be because of something else. I might simply expect too much.

Yeah, I think your last sentence pretty much says it all. You see, I take tours through the LDS Church Conference Center every Friday afternoon. Last week, two men came in for a tour. One was a Black man, I'd say about 6 feet tall, well built. He was most recently from L.A., but originally from Alabama. He'd moved to Salt Lake about two months ago and was living in Sugarhouse. The other was a White man, a little smaller in stature than the Black man. He was in the military and was just here in Salt Lake visiting the Black man. I spent about 45 minutes with the two of them. The Black man could hardly stop raving about how much he was liking Salt Lake City. He gave absolutely no indication that he foud the place to be "full of social awkwardness." Clearly, his experience hasn't been even close to yours. I'm not saying that either one of you is lying. Some people are simply more adaptable than others.

I have run into some super super nice people (2 senior women at Harmons downtown, cashier at Family Dollar, and salesman at the Ferrari Dealership) but generally speaking, people aren't that nice or outgoing to strangers and that's that. Don't let anyone on this site or elsewhere tell you any different. And remember, this is relative as I am from NC where people are super nice and outgoing. (I only realized that this year after moving back to NC from Houston)

Actually, I think we need to encourage as many people as are interested in posting to share their experiences -- and not just the ones who agree with you.

Yes, I said this city is full of social awkwardness. In my opinion, it is. I sincerely think that some of these people around here are afraid of what's different. Personally, I embrace diversity...read the title. I think alot of the people here look down their noses at me. I have a feeling why, but I don't have any concrete evidence. Hell, I don't want any concrete evidence. Really, the only thing that I can conclude is that [allegedly] the book of mormon says that people with darker skin are the descendents of Cain of the Bible and are cursed by God or some shi*t like that. That was the reason for denying Blacks into priesthood (until the ban was lifted in the 70's allegedly because the church was going to lose its tax exempt status). So, racism is embedded into this fluke of a religion and that religion built this big beautiful city. Why would I expect anything different? And yes I know that Joseph Smith and some others were avid abolitionalists, but I'm speaking on what I experience daily.

I'm glad you included the word "allegedly" when recounting what the Book of Mormon supposedly says, because it doesn't actually say anything of the sort. References to skin color in the Book of Mormon had absolutely nothing to do with the Church's racial discrimination prior to 1978. That said, the Church was never in danger of losing its tax exempt status due to it's policy of withholding the priesthood from Black men, either. Since this is not the religious forum, that brief statement is all I'm going to offer as rebuttal to your accusations.

Yes, people everywhere are afraid of what's different. People in Ohio, Missouri and Illinois were afraid of Mormonism because it was different. People can be so pathetic in that regard. I would suggest, though, that you not read too much into how you perceive people to be looking at you. It seriously sounds to me as if you're looking for hostility that simply does not exist.

But on the contrary, there is a concert series in the summertime here in the park. Rapper/quasi movie star Ludacris was here last week and over 40,000 people showed up. It broke the record. Sooo...white bred, picture perfect city hosts down south rapper singing about weed and hoes in every area code and gets biggest crowd ever? That's some weird sh*t especially when on my day to day basis, people seem like they want to avoid any contact with me at all costs. I guess its because I'm tall, huh?

Yeah, must be because you're tall.

I had this huge farm raised looking guy at the concert (out of the blue) come up to me and my visiting [Black] friend and shake our hands, but it was as though he was saying that he gave me permission to be there and we weren't going to have any problems. awkward.

Can't win for losing, can we?

Also, I was riding my bike and saw a rap concert downtown. Summer Jam I think. This was in close proximity of the temple. These rappers are rapping about weed and other deconstructive things with lyrics resonating throughout downtown, while really really young girls (14-15?) are dressed slutty to the max with camel toes showing...in a city that was built on religious beliefs. These polar opposites left me really confused and feeling awkward.

You're rather easily confused and quite frankly, pretty hard to please. You don't like the lack of diversity, but when you actually run into diversity, you're critical of it, too. Would you prefer that the city pass some kind of law saying that everyone has to dress like a Mormon on his/her way to church on Sunday?

Another thing on the dichotomy. About this huge, pretty temple here that has a gold statue on the top. It's also within a few feet of Nordstrom's, Cheesecake factory, and an abundance of those glitzy stores and restaurants. All of it looks brand spanking new. It's called City Creek and it was funded by the investment property group of the LDS church to the tune of $1.5B-$5B. Why the hell does a church need a property group and why was it so expensive? How about building something a little less pretty and use the money left over to build a homeless shelter? If I were truly a follower of God's word, there is no way that I could look at all of those homeless people on the streets and in Pioneer Park and go to church (with a shiny gold statue on the top) across the street from Nordstroms and the Cheesecake Factory...that the friggin church built. Now, if that is not 2 polar opposites in ideology I don't know what is. Awkward.

Clearly you have absolutely no clue as to the LDS Church's enormous humanitarian efforts. I would suggest you visit the Humanitarian Center as the first step in becoming educated on this topic. And meanwhile, be sure to stay away from the City Creek Center. You wouldn't want to be an active participant in something so vile as a brand spanking new shopping center.

It reminds me of riding down peachtree st in Atlanta on a Sunday where this cop stopped traffic to allow a couple to cross the street from their {Baptist} church to the parking lot to get in their brand new Bentley. If you have ever been to Atlanta, you know that there are plenty of homeless people on peachtree. How the hell can you get in your $250k car that you drove to church and ignore the homeless people that you drive by in your house on wheels? I'm passing judgement and I do not believe that is what Jesus would have done lol.

I fail to see how anything you've seen in Salt Lake City could remind you of what you just described.

Apparently, there is a gang culture out here. Supposedly, lots of people in Northern CA with 2 strikes move out here to do dirt. There's an episode of Gangland about it. I can't tell, but I won't rub any Hispanics or Polynesians the wrong way, that's for sure.

I'm afraid you're right.

People seem to be really health conscious as there are a vast array of good grocery stores. There are also some really good looking restaurants, but I'll never eat anywhere in this town where I cannot see someone prep my food...as a result of the vibe I feel that I listed above.

Paranoid much? Seriously, what are you expecting to happen in the kitchen behind your back here that is not just as likely to happen elsewhere?

Ummm...I guess that's it for now...let me reiterate my points;

Large, hot, naturally beautiful city with a clean downtown and a significant proportion of women that I personally find attractive. Ride your bike, don't talk to strangers, stay out of the cult, don't worship money or sex, and eat well. You will be engulfed by a general sense of overall weirdness.

Lastly and MOST importantly, if you are not a sheep, not LDS, not white and you don't know anyone out here and you are socially sensitive....there are probably better, more receptive places in this country to reside. Much, much better places. Like ANYWHERE on the east coast.[/quote]

My experience may be greatly varied from someone else's view and is liable to change...but i highly doubt it as I am very aware, sensitive, and observant.[/quote]You're sensitive? You just implied that 50% of Salt Lake City belongs to some kind of a weird, racist cult. Please tell me how that was in any way sensitive. As I said before, I am a white Mormon woman who has lived in Salt Lake City her entire life (65 years). This past summer I marched with a large group of Mormons in the Gay Pride Parade here in Salt Lake under the banner "Mormons Building Bridges." Had I been living in the South in the 1960s, I would have mached with Dr. Martin Luther King. I am vehemently opposed to every kind of prejudice there is -- be it racial, sexual, religious, cultural, etc. I am offended by your post and I have every reason to be.

Don't let a non black person chime in and say, "I have a black friend or am friends with an interracial couple and they don't have a problem at all and they love it here." That's bologna.

Gotcha. If it doesn't match your experience, it's not valid.

[markg91359]

I'm curious if the other forums attract as many people as the Utah forum does who seem more intent on expressing either latent or overt hostility to a state?

Something about Utah and perhaps the Mormons seems to make a small cross section of people simmer with rage.

[kletter1mann]

Originally Posted by markg91359

I'm curious if the other forums attract as many people as the Utah forum does who seem more intent on expressing either latent or overt hostility to a state?

Something about Utah and perhaps the Mormons seems to make a small cross section of people simmer with rage.

The NY forums do a fair job of attracting criticism.

[HoneyNMint]

Just read the whole thread. Interesting perspective on both sides. I will say that I am non-white, non-Mormon but I can't wait to visit Salt Lake City (don't want to live there). I think it's been on my list of U.S. cities that I've wanted to visit for a little while now. I'll just have to remember that the population there is socially akward and not take it to heart.