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Just because you interpret my statement to be a gross generalization doesn't mean I didn't do my research. I could honestly care less what you think of me or my motives, I know I am right about this. It was a topic of discussion for several weeks in my Psychology class. You have an opinion contrary to someone that did extensive research and you think you're right simply because I won't be bothered to provide my research to you? Seriously? As though my entire life balanced on whether or not I could provide research to support my case to someone that probably wouldn't believe it if the Police Chief himself said it was happening? No thanks, I have better things to do. Like I said, if you don't have faith in my assertion, prove it wrong. Your first attempt was weak and uncompelling.
Had you paid attention to the story I linked to, the person taking the test in New York scored too high to be considered. The SAPD site you linked to says a minimum score of 70 is required to receive preference points, it doesn't say a minimum score of 70 is required to pass. No where in the description of the SAPD written exam (or in the study guide prep) does it talk about what the scoring range is for passing or failing. The study guide prep does say it is a 3 hour test with 100 multiple-choice cognitive ability measures, and a 150 multiple-choice behavioral-orientation measure. You've proven nothing other than to validate that you spout off on things you haven't fully researched.
This IQ testing of police officer candidates is happening all over the country and candidates that score too high are being rejected everywhere. One thing to remember about the story I linked to... that case went to Federal Court, not just State Court in New York. While that doesn't necessarily prove it is a Federal issue, it is highly unlikely that a Federal Court would have heard the case if it weren't a nationwide issue instead of just a state issue.
This thread is titled 'Do you trust SAPD' but multiple other police and sheriff's departments have been brought up, not just SAPD.
I will give you this, you are passionate about your opinion. If only passion could somehow be parlayed into facts, you might have a chance of salvaging your position.
Great end around. I would expect nothing less from you. You supposedly have the proof to validate your position but won't show it cause you took a psych class and you are right and you can't be bothered. That's classic. Would I accept it as fact if the Chief were to say it happens sure I would, but will I accept such a generalization coming from someone who seems to have a serious hair up there rear about cops in general and just because you took a psych class and you say it's true. No not ever and I would also say I highly doubt you would accept anything the Chief would confirm or disprove since he is a cop and all cops are scum as you would believe. Passing is 70% or above and failing is 69% or less. The link is below and I'm sure they will give extra points for having a degree so they can just turn you down because you are too smart. Salvage my position you still have no proof of yours, so unless you provide such proof all you have is you took a class and you say it is true. That's pretty thin.
Your statement is gross generalization at best and what you said about why they don't want someone is nothing more than your own BS fueled by hatred which you never bothered to back up with facts. If I were your professor from school I would give you an F on your paper just from those two statements alone. It's not your job to validate all of your assumptions? Is that what you told your professor when he gave you a failing grade on your paper or did he grade you on a curve. By the way in case you were not paying attention this whole thread is about the SAPD not some other dept. in some other state. Here you can have a degree and they even encourage it. So I guess your assumptions about all cops just didn't work out for you so sorry.
Here's your proof you are wrong: http://www.sapdcareers.com/apply-now/testing/ They require a passing grade of 70% on the written test and if you make a 70% or better you can receive extra points for having a degree and other items.
70% doesn't leave me or the citizens of this city with much hope
And, I love how you continue to attempt to win this debate when you've already been spoon fed the evidence... Should I begin easily google searching for these proven statistics as well? I can post a half-dozen or so links if you'd like. I've got some time to kill.
BS? Hatred? I didn't sense either of those traits in his posts. I sensed intellect, calm demeanor and perhaps just a bit of deserved snark. It was well-written and as a opposite view to yours, easier to read and incurred correct punctuation and flowing written cadence. I appreciate those who take the time to present themselves well.
70% doesn't leave me or the citizens of this city with much hope
And, I love how you continue to attempt to win this debate when you've already been spoon fed the evidence... Should I begin easily google searching for these proven statistics as well? I can post a half-dozen or so links if you'd like. I've got some time to kill.
BS? Hatred? I didn't sense either of those traits in his posts. I sensed intellect, calm demeanor and perhaps just a bit of deserved snark. It was well-written and as a opposite view to yours, easier to read and incurred correct punctuation and flowing written cadence. I appreciate those who take the time to present themselves well.
Yes please post those links because so far he has done nothing to prove his case. Maybe you can help him out since he can't be bothered to produce his evidence. I would sincerely like to read the links and please make sure they are about SAPD. Remember generalizing is not proof of what goes on here in SA. I'll be waiting.
I actually did a paper in college about the fact that police departments give IQ tests to applicants before they can become police officers. The amusing thing is, you will actually get disqualified if you score too highly because they want a police force that can be conditioned to follow orders and procedure, NOT use critical thinking skills. For the cops out there reading this, that means you got your job because you scored poorly on the IQ test...
Somewhere, at some agency, they might have done that. I guess that makes it a "fact" but it doesnt make it an overall truth.
Getting hired as a LEO is a competitive process all over the country. The standards are rapidly increasing at most agencies everywhere. Why? Because they have no choice. There is such a huge candidate pool. So many people want to be a cop. Of course so many of these people do not qualify but the numbers are overwhelming. SAPD will have thousands of people, yes, thousands, show up to test, everytime there is a test, for an Academy. Which is about 30-50 spots.
For the specific case of SAPD, (which you dont have a clue about) It is a very simple system. People test and are ranked in order of their scores. Vets get a 5 point bump. Since mental abilities are only one aspect of being an LEO, many are weeded out by disqualifying background events, physical abilities and various live problem solving skills demonstrations put on by a board as well as weight given to college education and other skills sets conducive to being an LEO.
What you are left with is a ranked list based on the test. After all those things say you have persons 2, 7, 9, 10, 14, 19,.... That is who gets an invitation to the Academy. They still must survive a grueling military style Police Academy to actually become SAPD, then they must survive a field training program with a more experienced Officer before they are able to patrol alone.
No matter what you think, it is a well earned position that is based on ability, skills, talent and intellect.
I am not SAPD but I earned my job through a competitive process as well. There is simply no evidence for you claims other than anecdotes and the occasional isolated instance that is usually not supported by much evidence.
Most of the cops I work with either have college educations or are working on one. Anyone who wants to move up the ranks needs college chops. Perhaps you would like to trade emails from the universities we attend or are alumni of? One of mine is Harvard. My surgeon wife loves her smart sexy cop. Want to compare CVs? Or does none of that matter "because I am a cop...and you dont like cops."
I dont have a problem with how you feel about cops. Part of my sacred duty is protecting the rights of all people, even dumb ones or people I dont like. What I will do though is point out where you cross the line from opinion into making up your own facts.
I dont know of any cop, no matter what they do as a cop, that considers themselves a Soldier because they are a cop.
The job of a cop, even SWAT, and a soldier is fundamentally different and Cops know this. While training, equipment and look (the one that leads to all the feelings in people) may overlap, that are functionally different jobs and again, cops know this.
If you really want a somewhat more accurate parallel, and to some extent how cops see themselves, It isnt the military/soldier things. It is more of a Knight.
(really broad brush to illustrate my point)A soldier (and for this we are speaking more about infantry) goes out in large groups and battles the enemy forces. He only does this when under orders and there is a battle to be fought.
A Knight is charged by the powers that be to go out an defend the weak, do justice, find evil and remove it from the land. He does this alone or in small groups and he does this at all times.
I know some will have a problem with this or not agree with it or point out what they see are flaws with my descriptions. That is fine, if you take it for what it is, it illustrates not only how cops sometimes see themselves, it also helps demonstrate it isnt as "soldiers."
70% doesn't leave me or the citizens of this city with much hope
l.
That is silly swipe.
That is the very nature of a standard...a minimum level to which one must rise. 70% is most often the lower end of the bar for everything. From Doctors to the engineers that build the bridges you drive over to the people fix the airplanes you ride in.
In spite of its flaws, the system works fairly well. If you are going to specifically take a swipe at police because of a minimum standard, to be honest, you would have to apply that feeling to every human endeavor with a similar standard, which again is legion.
I doubt that there is a very high percentage of police officers that have ever run into a violent felon out on parole while shopping at their local Walmart with their families. So your point is
Again, you are entitled to your own feelings but not your own facts.
It is so common that there is actually jargon for it. "Running into a client."
It is so common that many LEO make the choice to not live anywhere close to where they work. While major cities LEOs, or people with State or Federal jobs, often can, it is a well known issue in Law Enforcerment that you dont want to eat where you poo. It is a massive safety issue for LEOs and their family.
It should also be known that, for various reasons, when someone you have arrested sees you, they sometimes want to approach you and make contact. 90% of the time it is because they want you to understand they are not a bad person. (the people you arrest take everything you do personally and they make it personal, it is about you and them) so after the fact they need closure to a personal issue, which to the cop was just another arrest you may not even remember.
Some though...some want to "intimidate"
As a person walking through walmart with my kids just trying to buy a toaster or whatever, I dont know what they want. Cops die in off duty ambushes every year (someone making good on a promise or thought to "get the cop")
Again, you are entitled to your own feelings but not your own facts.
It is so common that there is actually jargon for it. "Running into a client."
It is so common that many LEO make the choice to not live anywhere close to where they work. While major cities LEOs, or people with State or Federal jobs, often can, it is a well known issue in Law Enforcerment that you dont want to eat where you poo. It is a massive safety issue for LEOs and their family.
It should also be known that, for various reasons, when someone you have arrested sees you, they sometimes want to approach you and make contact. 90% of the time it is because they want you to understand they are not a bad person. (the people you arrest take everything you do personally and they make it personal, it is about you and them) so after the fact they need closure to a personal issue, which to the cop was just another arrest you may not even remember.
Some though...some want to "intimidate"
As a person walking through walmart with my kids just trying to buy a toaster or whatever, I dont know what they want. Cops die in off duty ambushes every year (someone making good on a promise or thought to "get the cop")
This happened to me many years ago after I had been arrested for assault. I ran into the officer coming out of court and felt the need to explain to him why it happened. I had no problem with him he was just doing his job. That's weird I have not thought about that in years but that's exactly what happened.
This happened to me many years ago after I had been arrested for assault. I ran into the officer coming out of court and felt the need to explain to him why it happened. I had no problem with him he was just doing his job. That's weird I have not thought about that in years but that's exactly what happened.
Thankyou for sharing that story.
There is a lot of information out there about it and as LEO, it is important for us to know, and to various extents, most do.
When an LEO arrests someone, it is "just what we do." Most of the time it isnt even a "big" arrest. But to the person being arrested it is the most important thing in their world. (we get that) A large percentage make it very personal. It becomes "them" vs the cop that arrested them. Some lash out. Call us every name in the book. Some get real personal (often while calling us every name in the book) and start saying things like (including these concepts) "You are not better than me..." or "I am better than you." They will go on and on about how they are good people. (sometimes they are) They have a compelling desire to "prove" to me they are not a bad person or some personalities are trying to prove I am not as good a person as they are. They are indignant that I, a person of lower status than them, would dare accuse them of.... (by status I dont mean people of real status either, there are homeless people who feel this way)
When they see me, months or years later at Taco Bell or whatever, they still have a compelling desire to demonstrate to me they are not a bad guy. They will tell me very personal things. "I have been a good father and have not hit my kids since that night." (It is like they want me to be proud of them) Sometimes they just want to brag that the charges were dropped or reduced. "I told you I didnt...." Sometimes they want to threaten or intimidate. "So, this is your family huh?"...while they try to act hard.
Most of the time, I recognize them but cant quite place them...but the look they give as the approach almost always triggers a feeling they are "a client." When you arrest a guy in the middle of the night who is dirty and scruffy looking and you spend most of your time watching their hands, you dont often recognize them a year later in daylight cleaned up.
Somewhere, at some agency, they might have done that. I guess that makes it a "fact" but it doesnt make it an overall truth.
Getting hired as a LEO is a competitive process all over the country. The standards are rapidly increasing at most agencies everywhere. Why? Because they have no choice. There is such a huge candidate pool. So many people want to be a cop. Of course so many of these people do not qualify but the numbers are overwhelming. SAPD will have thousands of people, yes, thousands, show up to test, everytime there is a test, for an Academy. Which is about 30-50 spots.
For the specific case of SAPD, (which you dont have a clue about) It is a very simple system. People test and are ranked in order of their scores. Vets get a 5 point bump. Since mental abilities are only one aspect of being an LEO, many are weeded out by disqualifying background events, physical abilities and various live problem solving skills demonstrations put on by a board as well as weight given to college education and other skills sets conducive to being an LEO.
What you are left with is a ranked list based on the test. After all those things say you have persons 2, 7, 9, 10, 14, 19,.... That is who gets an invitation to the Academy. They still must survive a grueling military style Police Academy to actually become SAPD, then they must survive a field training program with a more experienced Officer before they are able to patrol alone.
No matter what you think, it is a well earned position that is based on ability, skills, talent and intellect.
I am not SAPD but I earned my job through a competitive process as well. There is simply no evidence for you claims other than anecdotes and the occasional isolated instance that is usually not supported by much evidence.
Most of the cops I work with either have college educations or are working on one. Anyone who wants to move up the ranks needs college chops. Perhaps you would like to trade emails from the universities we attend or are alumni of? One of mine is Harvard. My surgeon wife loves her smart sexy cop. Want to compare CVs? Or does none of that matter "because I am a cop...and you dont like cops."
I dont have a problem with how you feel about cops. Part of my sacred duty is protecting the rights of all people, even dumb ones or people I dont like. What I will do though is point out where you cross the line from opinion into making up your own facts.
You are entitled to your opinion too just remember, as you have clearly pointed out, anecdotal evidence does not equal facts. I haven't made any statement in this thread where I definitively said this type of intelligence exclusion was happening at SAPD other than to demonstrate it is happening in other parts of the country and that I would be shocked if it wasn't happening in SA. As an alleged Harvard graduate, I would expect critical thinking skills that could differentiate between a persuasive argument and actual facts.
I would also expect, as an alleged Harvard graduate, that you would understand the difference between intelligence and education. The candidates that had been disqualified in my research and in the link I provided had high IQs. While many of them had gone on and completed college degrees, a college degree does not necessarily mean someone has above average intelligence.
The last point I will make about this, and I will leave it to you and all the other haters here to tell me how ignorant I am, that link I posted noted that the police department in New York was accepting candidates with an above average IQ but NOT with an exceptional IQ. They were accepting candidates with IQs as high as 104, where an average IQ is considered to be between 90-100. What that police department was weeding out was candidates with IQs well above the norm or in the case, more than two standard deviations from the mean.
So while I will acknowledge that for PR reasons, many police departments will say the reason they have this criteria in place is that they fear wasting a lot of money to train an exceptionally intelligent person who is likely to get bored with the job and leave, in my research, I was able to correlate many police departments that were weeding out candidates for the very reasons I listed. They want an intellect that will follow their training and not think outside the box. I am also well aware that correlation does not equal causation. Having said that, it doesn't change the FACT that it happens... a lot... Maybe not at SAPD but then again, maybe it does happen at SAPD. No one has proven that one way or the other in this thread.
For those keeping score at home, since it was suggested that I receive or should have received a failing grade on that paper, I seem to remember getting a B on it. Again, my writing left a lot to be desired at that stage of my life - well over a decade ago. Not that I am saying my writing is great today, far from it. It is just better today than it was 10+ years ago.
Compare resumes? Just like a cop... 'hey, I don't like you... let's see who has the biggest dick...' Maybe we can compare salaries too, would that prove anything?
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