Left for Dead? (Early, Howe, Rule: gated, price, law)

[sapphire]

Wel, I'm no doctor, but one article said most of her skull was crushed in. I don't see how you survive that. I feel bad for everyone involved, and am saving my judgment for when all of the facts come out.

[majormadmax]

I can fully understand her family's feelings, as they would be ours if one of our children were in the same situation. And the paramedics may have screwed up, but to be honest I don't think collectively they would have made the same mistake. One may have, but there were several at the accident site. We cannot judge based on the very limited knowledge we get from the press. I only sympathize with all involved (minus the alleged drunk driver if it is proven she had been drinking, and from what I understand that is probably true), this is definitely a no-win situation which could have easily be avoided if one person had made the right decision...

Cheers! M2

[PopsGuysRule]

Originally Posted by rd2007

I was listening to a piece on AM 1200 this morning and one of the prosecutors was saying it's the juries that are mostly at fault here. Seems it's hard to find jurors that see drunk driving as a crime, mostly because they also do it and don't feel right passing judgement on someone that is like themselves.. It's like people go out of their way to make people want to leave this city once they get to know it. That's gotta be the biggest load of crap I've ever heard in my life.

Well, I can tell you this:
Attornies do NOT want sober members of Alcoholics Anonymous on juries.
I have several friends that are members of AA and have been called for jury duty. When they mention their sobriety via AA, they are 'released' by both defense attorneys and prosecutors!
I find that very interesting.

Many of you have said that alcoholism is not a disease. I absolutely 100% understand and identify with your disdain for drunk drivers.
But it does not change the fact that even the American Medical Association identifies alcoholism as a disease.
The National Council on Alcoholism identifies it as a disease.
The program of Alcoholics Anonymous identifies it as a disease.

I watched a trial on TV once, where a relatively young man had killed a young woman; she was not in his vehicle and she did not know the young man. Her father had an opportunity to give a victims' impact statement. It so happened that he was a sober member of Alcoholics Anonymous. He asked the judge if he could approach the defendant and the judge said yes. He walked over and gave the young man a copy of the book, "Alcoholics Anonymous". He told the guy that he was sober via AA and that he did not believe in wasted emotions like hate. He said what he'd rather do is to give the young man materials and an encouragement to attend AA meetings in prison (yes, all jails and prisons have AA meetings; some daily) and to find a sober life.
This man's daughter had been killed, died a horrible death at the hands of this kid; but this father, who could VERY WELL have been in the same shoes in earlier years, decided to not only forgive, but to help the kid find a way out..... Without intervention, alcoholism ultimately kills - not only innocent victims, but the hearts and spirits of survivors.....
Here is precisely what the AMA says about alcoholism, directly from its website:
http://www.ama-ssn.org/ama1/pub/uplo..._treatable.pdf

I am saddened also by this young woman's death, and I believe that justice is going to be served when the young driver goes to court. I know that PERFECT JUSTICE cannot be attained here; it's too late; the young lady is gone and there is nothing we can do to change that now.
But we ABSOLUTELY have an opportunity to change future outcomes for the young lady who foolishly and recklessly took anothers' life. Don't for a minute think that drunks don't experience remorse and shame from these accidents. They absolutely do; but knowing no other alternative, they merely gravitate to the only 'salve' they know: more of the same: alcohol.

Peace to all of you in this Christmas season..... play safe.......

[CreekKnoll]

alcoholism
Main Entry: al·co·hol·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈal-kə-ˌhȯ-ˌli-zəm, -kə-hə-\
Function: noun
Date: 1860
1: continued excessive or compulsive use of alcoholic drinks
2 a: poisoning by alcohol b: a chronic disorder marked by excessive and usually compulsive drinking of alcohol leading to psychological and physical dependence or addiction

I would categorize it as a habit tbh.

[PopsGuysRule]

Originally Posted by CreekKnoll

alcoholism
Main Entry: al·co·hol·ism
Pronunciation: \ˈal-kə-ˌhȯ-ˌli-zəm, -kə-hə-\
Function: noun
Date: 1860
1: continued excessive or compulsive use of alcoholic drinks
2 a: poisoning by alcohol b: a chronic disorder marked by excessive and usually compulsive drinking of alcohol leading to psychological and physical dependence or addiction

I would categorize it as a habit tbh.

But the entire AMA and the National Council on Alcoholism disagrees with you!!!
They are very public in their statement about alcoholism being a disease; yes, that is the word THEY use: Disease.
It even has its own ICD9 code in the medical profession. And just how do YOU categorize a 'chronic DISORDER'?

Why is this so unacceptable to so many of you?
No one is saying alcoholics should go untreated OR unpunished!!!

The medical community has also found a very close link between diabetes and alcoholism and they find instances where diabetics go into a state that 100% resembles drunkenness. When they test their blood during these times, it mimics VERY closely the blood test results of people who have alcohol in their blood, in their system.

Why is this so unacceptable to you? No one said you had to have PITY for drunks on the road or that you had to ACCEPT that they drive drunk. In fact, no person in AA would EVER suggest that ANY alcoholic should not pay EVERY consequence they've created for themselves by their own drinking. In fact, the exact opposite is true..... There simply absolutely IS NO recovery unless that alchoholic makes amends for any & all damage they caused by their drinking - to the best extent that they can.....

No one wants drunk drivers on the road!! One of the worst tragedies I ever saw first hand was a young woman who had killed another driver on the road. She went to prison, was released with parole, and attended AA meetings. She had attended AA meetings in prison and was fully convinced of her alcoholism and fully committed to preserving her sobriety.
She was out of prison less than three months, went to speak at a nearby womens' halfway house, and was killed by a drunk driver on her way home that night.

I am just not clear why so many of you seem to not even read clearly what I am saying here. Jail doesn't help. Probation doesn't help. Classes don't help. Fines don't help. But surely, refusing to acknowledge established
facts - SCIENTIFIC established facts - is not going to resolve anything. Nothing at all. It will probably, in fact, only exacerbate the problem.

I choose to trust the AMA and the National Council on Alcholism.

[majormadmax]

PGR

I am glad that you sympathize with alcoholics so much, they probably could use the ally; but I have a hard time forgiving anyone who knows that they have a drinkiing problem but still get behind a wheel of a car. Honestly, I don't care if people drink. It is a free country. But when they do so and drive, they knowingly risk the lives of innocent people. And as far as I am concerned, it is premeditated and should be considered nothing less than murder. There is no excuse. And it doesn't matter of it is a disease or not, because even if it is, they are fully aware of their condition and continue to drink and drive. No excuse. And I do not care if jail doesn't help, or probabation, or education, or fines...if anyone willingly does something that causes such grevious injuries and even death to others should be removed from society for a very long time, for the rest of their lives if necessary. It may not solve their problem, but it will prevent them from killing anyone else because of it. And honestly, I would rather they go to jail for the rest of their lives than see another innocent person killed. It was the drunk driver who was responsible, and it is the drunk driver who must be held accountable. Until a stronger stance is taken on drinking and driving, expect more innocent people to be killed.

The bottom line is clear...alcoholics should get help, but drunk drivers should be put away. There is a helluva distinction between the two.

M2

[PopsGuysRule]

Originally Posted by majormadmax

PGR


I am glad that you sympathize with alcoholics so much, they probably could use the ally; but I have a hard time forgiving anyone who knows that they have a drinkiing problem but still get behind a wheel of a car. Honestly, I don't care if people drink. It is a free country. But when they do so and drive, they knowingly risk the lives of innocent people. And as far as I am concerned, it is premeditated and should be considered nothing less than murder. There is no excuse. And it doesn't matter of it is a disease or not, because even if it is, they are fully aware of their condition and continue to drink and drive. No excuse. And I do not care if jail doesn't help, or probabation, or education, or fines...if anyone willingly does something that causes such grevious injuries and even death to others should be removed from society for a very long time, for the rest of their lives if necessary. It may not solve their problem, but it will prevent them from killing anyone else because of it. And honestly, I would rather they go to jail for the rest of their lives than see another innocent person killed. It was the drunk driver who was responsible, and it is the drunk driver who must be held accountable. Until a stronger stance is taken on drinking and driving, expect more innocent people to be killed.

The bottom line is clear...alcoholics should get help, but drunk drivers should be put away. There is a helluva distinction between the two.

M2

First of all, I don't 'sympathize' with any alcoholics anywhere. I do 'empathize' with them, however.
But what you say makes no sense! Once the alcohol is in the body, the mind is affected and the drinker (whether it be an alcoholic or a 'social drinker') has no ability to make sane choices anymore.

But you know, I give up. If the medical field, the American Medical Association, and the National Council on Alcoholism can't convince you that this is a disease, then surely, I cannot. All of your replies lead me to believe that you have not even looked at the links I've provided.
And I surely can't convince you that - in reality, there is NO difference between an alcoholic and a drunk driver.
So, whatever, M2.
I'm sure you'll come up with a solution somehow.

[sapphire]

My only problem with this is:

Are all drunk drivers alcoholics? No.

Are all alcoholics drunk drivers? No.

I think that's where people have a problem swallowing this. It implies or infers (I always get those mixed up) that there is a choice involved, or at least that's the way I see it. I was married to an alcoholic but he absolutely refused to drive while drinking. Whereas I work with a kid, (he's early 20's, therefore a kid), and I don't think he's an alcoholic (but he may well be) but he drinks and drives on a continuous basis.

[Merovee]

Not every drunk driver is an 'alcoholic'.

[franklin9150]

Originally Posted by sapphire

My only problem with this is:

Are all drunk drivers alcoholics? No.

Are all alcoholics drunk drivers? No.

I think that's where people have a problem swallowing this. It implies or infers (I always get those mixed up) that there is a choice involved, or at least that's the way I see it. I was married to an alcoholic but he absolutely refused to drive while drinking. Whereas I work with a kid, (he's early 20's, therefore a kid), and I don't think he's an alcoholic (but he may well be) but he drinks and drives on a continuous basis.

I sometimes think that some of the "drunk drivers" are just average people that meerly have their judgement clouded from the alcohol, and at other times think that they are "alcoholics" that live under the influence. Could it be a combination of both? When does the average person that has a lack of judgement under the influence become an alcoholic out of control? Now, I say this not giving the average person the right to drink and drive, as it is in no way excusable. Where is the line drawn?