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Location: Wandering the halls aimlessly...Hello? Is anyone there?
307 posts, read 455,330 times
Reputation: 129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwh
Yes I dont have kids in the public schools, but I know of people with kids in schools and quite a few teachers. Our public schools are undeserving our children, that is not even in question.
The reason why GPA has no bearing on the taks test, is so that it carries some weight. Before when the tests had no weight, many kids would just bubble in answers randomly. This is sad but true. These tests must carry some weight so kids will at least try to take them. There is no perfect way to evaluate what kids know, but tests are tests and must be taken. If your kid makes good grades, she should have no problem passing the taks test. If you kid makes good grade and fails the taks test, you school has failed your daughter. Average students should have no problem doing well on it.
No i am stating if your daughter is doing well, but having a hard time with the taks, the school has failed you and your daughter. Average students should have little problem passing this test. If you daughter is in fact above average, she should easily ace this test.
And be replaced with what? We still need to continue to evaluate our schools, teachers and students.
You know a wise man once told me to never present a problem without having a solution...it makes you look like your whining and people hate that. So, without futher ado, I have one. Its not the best and I'm sure it will get chewed up, spit out and otherwise torn apart, but its a start.
My child get a progress report every quarter. This is where I think the school system should implement a quarterly test if you will, much like a mid-term. Understand that not all grade levels will have them, as the lower grades usually are when the childs study habits, belief systems and attitudes are forming. This is where the heavier concentration of behavioral skills should be developed.
Once we get into the higher grades the mid term would be over the first half of the school year and then a final at the end. I have known children who are highly intelligent, but, for whatever reason, could not convey the answers in written form. Thats where the human aspect comes in. Right now we rely to heavily on computer technology. If discrepancies existed with the childs GPA and end of course grade, the childs parents would be able to appeal to the School.....not the School Board, and a oral exam would be given to the child. It would encompass only the areas where he or she failed and would be administered at a time which the school felt was appropriate but administerd within a 30 day time frame from the date of the exam. Once again, The human aspect is entirely involved from square one. If a child was cheating throughout the year, it would definately be discovered either by way of written or oral exam. The final determination would be made by a board overseeing the exam as to whether the child promotes or remains. Its not perfect, but its a start.
Now we get into the high school area. Every three months the child is tested as the curriculum becomes much more advanced. This would encourage the child to develope better study skills, time accounting, and help he or she gauge where they are with thier academics. It would also show who was the good teacher and who needed some work. It would keep the child and parent involved in the testing process and once again distinguish between who is cheating and who is doing well. In the later grades, the answers should be subjective, much like a college exam so it forces the child to think. I know on my Law Enforcement exams in the academy (a looong time ago) the answers were right, but only one was the best right answer. Kept you on your toes.
Now of course there are pros and cons with every grade level and test. Its not perfect, but the one main ingredient is the Human Element. Teachers would be involved with the developement of the child as a whole and not reciting the test and how you should study. The parents would be able to see what was taught, what the child did well on and where the child needs to improve upon. In essence the learning enviroment would be just that...a learning enviroment. Sure it needs some tweaking, but there is no room for allegations of unfairness or slanted test scores. And yes, the childs GPA would matter. The earned it, it should count for something.
I, like some of the posters in this thread, have had excellent teachers and horrible teachers. You learn early on who cares and who doesnt. When you have a person who is passionate about the subject matter they are teaching, it reflects on the students. When you have one that hates what he or she is teaching its the same scenario. I find it hard to believe that with so many teachers out there who hate this test that its not passed onto alot of these children. Get rid of the TAKS Test...there are much better systems out there...I know it.
Location: Wandering the halls aimlessly...Hello? Is anyone there?
307 posts, read 455,330 times
Reputation: 129
You first...
Quote:
Originally Posted by quest51210
winterscorpion, still no message from you in my inbox. we recently had to ambush dr. duron to meet with us and have the media involved now. do not think it will roll into an actual segment, but we can all hope. also have quite a few city council members fed up with the TAKS testing. we are now working with our state reps, but the issue is that some of them are not educated enough themselves to speak on the subject. there is a good friend of mine at the education trust named dr. paul ruiz. he is a wealth of information and worth the wait to have a sit down with him.
If you are serious and want to know more about me, perhaps a sign of good faith from you first. You'll excuse me if I dont hand all my information to you at one time....heaven forbid someone use this against me sometime down the road, or worse, use it against my children. Not being paranoid mind you, just cautious.
Location: Wandering the halls aimlessly...Hello? Is anyone there?
307 posts, read 455,330 times
Reputation: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowie
Interesting article on the front page of today's Express-News about dropouts. It mentions how the pressure to keep TAKS averages and attendance up actually leads teachers and administrators to abandon students who drop out. Those students poor scores and attendance lower those important averages upon which teachers are judged, so the teachers appear to be performing better without them.
Dropping in on dropouts to push school (http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/Dropping_in_on_dropouts_to_push_education.html - broken link)
Im interested to see how many of these so called drop-outs are problematic students and what the teacher's response was to thier returning?
You mentioned research laboratory. You must be one of those folks that know whats best for all children....and school systems right?
No I do not know what best for kids. I have a lot of them. But I do know that the 'educational elite' have absolutely failed our kids and from the comments here I am not hopeful that much has changed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion
Number crunching, analyzing, statistic gathering....
You are getting warm... You would be amazed the number of jobs that require skills like these. So carry on with that thought to: writing papers, curing cancer, presenting results at conferences. You get the idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion
The one element you failed to address is that each child developes at his or her own pace.....no numbers, statistics, or other BS is going to change that.....
Yes some kids are brighter than others. Some are better at languages, some at math. Some kids are good with their hands. Unfortunately testing and assessment has a way of showing these differences - and that is the part of the key reason why you despise the TAKS test. Most of is is based on ideology.
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion
Rather than consult the ones who would see the actual application of this test
Yeah let's consult solely with the teachers and even better the Students: Next up let's consult with Turkeys and ask them what they think about Thanksgiving.
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion
Back to my original point. How can a state exam properly show where the child is academically in one day what a teacher shows throughout a years worth of documentation?
It does NOT, but it is better than all of the alternatives. Teachers have a habit of let's say 'fudging' these assessments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion
I think you've lost sight of the childs developement in an attempt to push your obvious dislike for teachers and their Unions. This leads me to believe that you have had some experience (quite possibly negative) with them. I am also led to believe that you are using this forum as a way to promote your belief that the American School system is failing overall.
No don't take my word for it. Here is some data from other sources.
Average combined mathematics literacy, subscales, and problem-solving scores of 15-year-old students, by country: 2003 (http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2006/section2/table.asp?tableID=462 - broken link)
We are close to the bottom in most measures.....
But yet we spend the most - over $14,000 per year.
If I follow you right, and I think I do, you would have the United States implement a series of tests as early as possible so as to ensure that the US would rank 1st in the world for education.
No 2 or 3 would also be fine.... Believe it or not this will help to keep our standard of living, which funds our medicare, medicaid and social security system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion
So in other words, each would be taught to learn, read, and function a certain way, maintaining a higher IQ than that of our neighboring countries right?
Where are we going with this? Ahhh.. Now I follow you, you wanted to bring in the word IQ so that.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion
I mean after all the United States is greatly lacking....you yourself said we should start learing Mandarin. I believe that was tried once many years ago. The only difference between thier mindset and yours was German would have been thier language of choice. Look how that ended up.
you could try and make a ludicrous Ad Hominem attack. Shame on you. I really wish you would focus on the topic...
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion
You are obviously educated....that I'm sure of. Its your narrow mind and train of thought that bother me.
Sorry it was the Jesuits' fault! No what bothers you most is that somebody could think otherwise from you and your amen corner.
Quote:
Originally Posted by winterscorpion
Your right and everyone else is wrong....
No I am not but I hope that you can see that there may be other reasons why removing the TAKS test may not be the most prudent thing to do.
Frankly, and I will have to cut out here, the TAKS test has helped to identify the needs of those underserved schools since it shows how they have been neglected and have been ignored. The TAKS test has the singular advantage of finally showing us that the Emporer really has no clothes.
I would suggest that rather than shooting the messenger - i.e. the fact that the TAKS produces results that you do not like why not expend your considerable energy on improving our school system. Let's start together and ask for the ability to fire failing teachers. Let's break up the monolithic school districts that focus exclusively on sports results and not student achievment.
If you want to return the pre-TAKS days fine. I suggest that we work in improving the TAKS test and making it broader, deeper and frankly more meaningful. QED
Last edited by slonga; 09-07-2008 at 11:00 AM..
Reason: typo
I have not read the whole post, but I have been a public school teacher, assistant principal, and principal (at the middle school level), and I currently teach teachers to teach at the university level.
Put the blame where it belongs. All of this testing is coming down from our Federal Government and the No Child Left Behind Act. The feds are using threats to hold funding to force states to put in this testing. The Texas Education Agency takes that role seriously and has even greater requirements than the feds. I believe in accountability, but we now have accountability on steroids. If you want a change, watch how you vote. This is George Bush and the far right's legacy.
As far as having 17 year olds in Middle School, that is a local issue. In Abilene, we have a separate campus for any child who is two years behind in Middle School. That removes the 13 and older kids from the sixth grade, the 14 and older kids from the 7h grade, and the 15 and older kids from the eighth grade. They don't join the other kids again until high school. Create a parent task force and propose this kind of system to your local school board.
I have not read the whole post, but I have been a public school teacher, assistant principal, and principal (at the middle school level), and I currently teach teachers to teach at the university level.
Put the blame where it belongs. All of this testing is coming down from our Federal Government and the No Child Left Behind Act. The feds are using threats to hold funding to force states to put in this testing. The Texas Education Agency takes that role seriously and has even greater requirements than the feds. I believe in accountability, but we now have accountability on steroids. If you want a change, watch how you vote. This is George Bush and the far right's legacy.
As far as having 17 year olds in Middle School, that is a local issue. In Abilene, we have a separate campus for any child who is two years behind in Middle School. That removes the 13 and older kids from the sixth grade, the 14 and older kids from the 7h grade, and the 15 and older kids from the eighth grade. They don't join the other kids again until high school. Create a parent task force and propose this kind of system to your local school board.
There was me thinking how can I prove that the TAKS-Bashing is based on ideology.....
and then along comes James from Abeline...
There you have it Game, Set and Match. It is all because of George Bush and the far right's legacy.
Location: Wandering the halls aimlessly...Hello? Is anyone there?
307 posts, read 455,330 times
Reputation: 129
Quote:
Originally Posted by slonga
No I do not know what best for kids. I have a lot of them. But I do know that the 'educational elite' have absolutely failed our kids and from the comments here I am not hopeful that much has changed.
What do you mean educational elite? Are you making reference to those who consider themsleves collectively smarter that the general public, or do you mean those who are able to engage in witty banter with you? You lost me. To hear you talk would lead one to believe that this is all part of some elaborate conspiracy to pigeon hole our youth by limiting thier educational boundaries.
You are getting warm... You would be amazed the number of jobs that require skills like these. So carry on with that thought to: writing papers, curing cancer, presenting results at conferences. You get the idea.
Yeah Im amazed, awe inspired and totally shocked. Shocked by those who gather statistics, crunch numbers, and analyze data...all from an office setting. Like those who gather the UCR reports. Those are always 100 percent accurate right? We could do this all day if you want, but you still havent convinced me yet...
Yes some kids are brighter than others. Some are better at languages, some at math. Some kids are good with their hands. Unfortunately testing and assessment has a way of showing these differences - and that is the part of the key reason why you despise the TAKS test. Most of is is based on ideology.
So because of these fundamental differences you would fail one and promote the other? Nice!
Yeah let's consult solely with the teachers and even better the Students: Next up let's consult with Turkeys and ask them what they think about Thanksgiving.
I think they would rather give you a bird of sorts given your one track mind purporting how lacking and deficient they are in the application of the curriculum. You have some hidden beef with teachers dont you.
It does NOT, but it is better than all of the alternatives. Teachers have a habit of let's say 'fudging' these assessments.
Is it the teachers or is it the Administration that encourages this?
No don't take my word for it. Here is some data from other sources.
Average combined mathematics literacy, subscales, and problem-solving scores of 15-year-old students, by country: 2003 (http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2006/section2/table.asp?tableID=462 - broken link)
We are close to the bottom in most measures.....
But yet we spend the most - over $14,000 per year.
No 2 or 3 would also be fine.... Believe it or not this will help to keep our standard of living, which funds our medicare, medicaid and social security system.
Where are we going with this? Ahhh.. Now I follow you, you wanted to bring in the word IQ so that.....
you could try and make a ludicrous Ad Hominem attack. Shame on you. I really wish you would focus on the topic...
The topic was the Taks test....nothing else. To ask me to focus on something that I started talking about in the first place is foolish. Shows just how "educated" you really are...Nice
Sorry it was the Jesuits' fault! No what bothers you most is that somebody could think otherwise from you and your amen corner.
The Jesuits fault....now we are getting somewhere. Please continue as you are digging your hole much deeper with each comment you make. I had my suspicion you were a little nutty, now I know you ARE. I should have picked up on it when you started on the Teachers Union (which has no bearing to this topic) and then when you made mention of it a second time. Yep, your educated alright...to the point of lunacy.
No I am not but I hope that you can see that there may be other reasons why removing the TAKS test may not be the most prudent thing to do.
The cool things about public forums is that they allow everyone an opportunity to talk about whats eating at them. Mine is the TAKS Test and the stress it puts on kids. Yours is this whole teacher, and union conspiracy thing Im still trying to understand. You either are for it, or against it. I'm against it. There that wasnt so hard was it? Seems that sometimes what can be said in a wordy sentence can just as well be conveyed in one or two words. Thanks......for nothing.
Frankly, and I will have to cut out here, the TAKS test has helped to identify the needs of those underserved schools since it shows how they have been neglected and have been ignored. The TAKS test has the singular advantage of finally showing us that the Emporer really has no clothes.
Are you listening to what you are saying?
I would suggest that rather than shooting the messenger - i.e. the fact that the TAKS produces results that you do not like why not expend your considerable energy on improving our school system. Let's start together and ask for the ability to fire failing teachers. Let's break up the monolithic school districts that focus exclusively on sports results and not student achievment.
I will not shoot the messenger. The messenger is the guy who starts the ball rolling. In my humble opinion, you are far from being that messenger. You are more like the instigator at a large riot where people are just looking for a reason to fly off the handle. You don't sound rational at all to me......really.
If you want to return the pre-TAKS days fine. I suggest that we work in improving the TAKS test and making it broader, deeper and frankly more meaningful. QED
If "we" means you and I, I'd much rather consult with teachers. At least then I know theres some validity to the content and personal agendas will not be on the table. Relax....take a deep breath...there isnt that much better. Might I suggest the "Conspiracy and the Teachers Union" thread. You would have a blast with that one.
Peace
Winter
Last edited by winterscorpion; 09-07-2008 at 01:28 PM..
Reason: emphasis points
If "we" means you and I, I'd much rather consult with teachers. At least then I know theres some validity to the content and personal agendas will not be on the table. Relax....take a deep breath...there isnt that much better. Might I suggest the "Conspiracy and the Teachers Union" thread. You would have a blast with that one.
Peace
Winter
Good response. I actually laughed at some of this. Okay I will start a thread on 'Conspiracy and the Teachers Union" That is after I have finished my book: "How I learned to love Big Oil."
Now some threads for you:
"The TAKS test -- how it runied my life."
"Moby Dick II: Captain Winter and his TAKS obsession."
"I could have been a contender..... Except for TAKS" - you could get movie rights on that one...
Interesting article on the front page of today's Express-News about dropouts. It mentions how the pressure to keep TAKS averages and attendance up actually leads teachers and administrators to abandon students who drop out. Those students poor scores and attendance lower those important averages upon which teachers are judged, so the teachers appear to be performing better without them.
Dropping in on dropouts to push school (http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/Dropping_in_on_dropouts_to_push_education.html - broken link)
I read this article and immediately went to my wife (the teacher) and said, "guess what... Supt. Duron says it is all your fault." Her response: "Where is the administration, the school board, the superintendent? Where are the parents? I have 30 kids in a class but only 29 desks (true - one student sits at the teacher's desk) and I have to be the one tracking the kid that drops out?"
I know I'm getting off topic, but perhaps if we (as a society) stopped placing more and more responsibility on the schools then the problems would solve themselves. I guess I'm just tired of hearing how the schools are failing the students, but when my wife has "open house" only 2 or 3 parents show up. How do you respond when a parent says upon calling them at home, "talk to his probation officer" (again a true story)? I would be willing to bet that the schools (public, private, charter) that are the most successful are the ones that have very active parents. I will state again that, yes, there are some bad teachers out there, but I believe that most are truly committed (even over-committed) to seeing their students succeed.
Oh... I'm not attacking your comments, Bowie... just the ones made by Supt. Duron (of which I'm honestly surprised).
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