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Well there is nothing that can stop you from not differentiating between the two, just do not pretend you speak for everyone because you won't get some of us to adopt your position as of now.
Here are some more examples that do differentiate between the two.
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Plus there’s a fun, friendly sibling rivalry going on between the Southtown and Lavaca neighborhoods (where we–the up-and-comers–live) and the more established, more conservative and cleaned up King William district. The neighborhoods frequently, albeit anecdotally, “steal” residents from each other.
Explorer's Guide Austin, San Antonio & The Texas Hill Country: A Great Destination by Amy K. Brown labels King William as, "the neighborhood south of Durango Boulevard, bounded by the river to the west and and South Alamo street to the east," while, "directly east, the area south of South Alamo Street is known as Southtown."
Unsure how clearer you can get to that. While the naming convention of Southtown is not completely settled it is fine for you to go with an alternative definition, no harm will come.
As I understand somee in Southtown would not mind claiming King William as within their boundaries but I don't think everyone in King William feels the same...
His view that many are transient seems spot on since some Southtowners are not setting down roots but plan to move on.
My wife and I are both 30 and purchased quite an expensive home in SoFlo 2 years ago, we very much consider that putting up roots. I mention price only to reiterate the point of putting up "roots." Try not being like Mr Bragg and do not judge a neighborhood where you do not live.
My wife and I are both 30 and purchased quite an expensive home in SoFlo 2 years ago, we very much consider that putting up roots. I mention price only to reiterate the point of putting up "roots." Try not being like Mr Bragg and do not judge a neighborhood where you do not live.
A friend (and Southtown neighbor) made a point that if prices continue to go up, it will be harder for *"young" families to buy here. I'd agree with that. But in any community where people put down roots, where families are not transient - not moving to the bigger house in the newer neighborhood - you're going to go through a phase where the kids age out and mostly you have empty nesters. I've seen this very often in suburban neighborhoods, so it would come as no shock here. The only way you get a continual influx of young families is if you have people selling their houses so the new families can move in - i.e. transients. I don't see that happening much in Southtown - many of my neighbors moved *from* the suburbs to Southtown to raise their families rather than the other way around as the article suggests. So, it's possible in 15-20 years that there won't be a huge number of young families/kids around, but given the community being built now, there will still be a strong sense of community, and there will likely be a cycle with new families eventually making their way here after a time, depending on prices, and the next generation of current residents taking over the family property, as we currently have with many neighbors. Same as in the suburbs.
But for now, this place is bursting with kids and the sense of community is overwhelming. Any good reporter would have done enough research to find that out. People really DO raise their kids in the city and, in San Antonio, it's very easy to do so.
His reference to a land of apartments makes me wonder if he is geographically confused. While Southtown (KW, Lavaca SoFLo, LoneStar wherever south of downtown and north of Hwy 90) does have apartments, they are the minority in housing options. RiverNorth, OTOH, does have a lot of apartments and not that many kids, so perhaps he took a wrong turn outside the Express-News building...
The frustration with this article is not just a matter of Southtown pride. If it had just been negative opinions, that'd be annoying but each to their own. However, it is based on a lack of information which does a service to no one.
*This area is often referred to as having "young" professionals, but I tend to think of "young" professionals as those newly minted college grads in their 1st job. i.e. 20-somethings. But while I like thinking of myself as young, most of the professionals I know in Southtown tend to be in the 30-50s+ age bracket. There are a few 20-ish types, but that seems less the norm. Many of us have young families, but started those families - and purchased property - in our 30s or older. However that could be that I just whom I meet, and the perspective of what is "young" may vary.
Do you see everything in grey? That's King William.
Do you understand now?
It is a little debatable
Their map suggests that the KWA claims S. Presa and S. St Mary's as their own. However, when the new KW historic signs went in, KWA wanted nothing to do with those streets and especially NOT S. Presa. The old timers of KWA like to disassociate themselves from the riff-raff of Lavaca and SoFLo, but most embrace all. The Lavaca Neighborhood Association also claims those streets http://www.lavaca.net/wp-content/upl.../04/lavaca.png but the historic district doesn't go all the way to the tracks.
This map also includes the area N/W of S. Main St, and while some of the northern portion may be (e.g. around Arsenal - I am not sure about that), I know definitely that the area beyond the River Authority building is NOT part of the KW Historic District or KWA and is not bound by the HDRC guidelines for the area. They tried to annex it a few years ago, but failed.
But, as stated elsewhere, except for those few who claim to be the only ones who can speak for KW, most people today embrace everything South of Cesear Chavez as Southtown. Given the factual inaccuracies of the article and the obvious geographical confusion of the author, I wouldn't take his descriptions as indicative of anything relevant.
Well there is nothing that can stop you from not differentiating between the two, just do not pretend you speak for everyone because you won't get some of us to adopt your position as of now.
Here are some more examples that do differentiate between the two.
FYI - while a nice article, the person who wrote that was VERY much a newcomer to Lavaca and San Antonio, and many residents of both KW and Lavaca questioned her on that perception, since this was the first any heard of any rivalry. When she actually said this (in person), she said "King William v. Lavaca" not "Southtown v. Lavaca" as the latter doesn't make sense.
Lavacans used to refer to ourselves as the "Backdoor to King William" or the "poor sibling of KW" or "King William's Servant's Quarters" and the like. But that is mostly a joke, though it does reflect the differences in housing of King William proper (not baja) and Lavaca and the history of the area.
Just because it is in print, doesn't mean it's accurate.
If you're at all involved in the community, you know that there's much discussion of what is "Southtown" and frustration that those who have no idea of the area (city workers, for example, who put out maps! - and these are what those who write about Southtown but don't live here use) continue to give out clueless information. Those in KW who want to insulate themselves from the rest of Southtown are still powerful, but are shrinking in number. Like the community, the term, as it is used colloquially by those who LIVE here, is one of embracing - it embraces all as part of one community. Lavacans consider SoFlo and Lonestar residents as neighbors as much as we do KW and our own Lavaca neighbors, and vice versa (mostly).
Do you see everything in grey? That's King William.
Do you understand now?
I understand this map somewhat.
King William can be seen on it but I also see a strip of Lavaca (if you ever drove down St. Mary's coming from Town going South you'd know King William is to your right but not to your left, I remember the murder back in the 1990s outside the old Handy Andy there).
Blue Star and Arsenal can also be seen on that map.
I define King William as King William and Baja King William (added to the King William Historical District in 1984) and not everything in gray on that map.
FYI King William Association's limits are not conterminous with King William itself.
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Originally Posted by TXEX06
My wife and I are both 30 and purchased quite an expensive home in SoFlo 2 years ago, we very much consider that putting up roots. I mention price only to reiterate the point of putting up "roots." Try not being like Mr Bragg and do not judge a neighborhood where you do not live.
Congratulations for your purchase and intentions to set roots down.
While I might hold a similar opinion to Mr. Bragg, that I suspect Southtowners might leave and might not be truly loyal to San Antonio (definitely not loyal to the Southside as a whole in my opinion), but I hold this opinion for a different reason than Mr Bragg.
No, not because of an exodus to the suburbs, but I base my hunch on the stories I have heard and read from Southtowners themselves.
There are plenty of professionals and people who are not native San Antonians (which enhances suspicions of disloyalty to our city).
So with that in mind I understand markets can be fickle and where the jobs are at might change from decade to decade. These professionals will follow their professions but hopefully San Antonio keeps growing and they remain as welcome additions to our city.
Personally I am grateful for the presence since for decades King William was happy to remain an enclave but Southtown seems a tad bit more open and their presence alone is bringing change to all of the Southside. Those moving further down into SoFlo such as yourself are helping in this. Hopefully not too many locals will be displaced in the process of gentrification.
Now keep in mind this is my opinion spoken in terms of hunches and suspicions. I am not claiming this is fact and in no way is it judging any neighborhood. I do think I have a right to my opinion knowing it is only an opinion, and to my suspicions as a native of this side of town, but I also have a history with that area.
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Originally Posted by Merovee
I remember when El Norteño was on South Flores St. in the early 80's. So they have been around for a while.
Lots of memories. My grandfather had a TV repair shop right in front of it and he also relocated to South Presa. My mother used to sell raspas to students after the school down the block let out.
That school was Briscoe.
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Originally Posted by Merovee
@ TexasNick lol I was trying to be a little man, I remember preaching in Spanish to an adult audience on Flores street in the 80's, srs bsns, and that pic is so lolcats!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Merovee
King William did fall into decline before the middle of the last century but for many decades now has been an enclave of old money. Many members of the SA Conversation Society live in King William. They are some of the most politically well connected citizens of the city on par as their old money counterparts in Alamo Heights.
The urban gentrification of Southtown outside of King William is a more recent phenomena. Gentrification is happening all over the country and for those requiring a definition it is when wealthy people move into a neighborhood that has declined.
It is a community investment of sorts in that those moving in make an investment for the future. Naturally there will be some homes that lag behind but defining a neighborhood undergoing gentrification by those homes which have yet to be bought and restored is simply an unreliable gauge since it is also an individual investment to restore a home but only after the previous owners each decide to sell.
The posts from others are hardly propaganda. New blood is exactly what gentrification is about. What you consider self promotion is just buzz over what the residents there are already enjoying what they have built: a sense of community.
While I do not live in Southtown I grew up not far from it and still live near. The first church I went to was in a building which was condemned by the city and moved into a residence just down the block from the first church very near S St Mary's and Claudia. My grandfather owned a shop on S. Flores just south of SoFlo.
Naturally I understand the class differences and know that the residents of Southtown are not true Southsiders in the same sense as those of us who have always been here but the wonderful wave of change they bring with them does filter out into our neighborhoods so they are much appreciated.
Vsiting that area is one of the joys San Antonio has to offer. There is this beautiful little park near some very elegant homes where we park near at times and walk down into the Riverwalk and into downtown. Skeptics should try it if they have never visited and certainly the residents could tell you of better opportunities to visit.
Anyways I encourage you to discern between different opinions because while mine might be nuanced it is not hostile. I admit of being defensive of this side of town as a whole so I won't judge harshly your own defensiveness for your new neighborhood. Good luck!
While I might hold a similar opinion to Mr. Bragg, that I suspect Southtowners might leave and might not be truly loyal to San Antonio (definitely not loyal to the Southside as a whole in my opinion), but I hold this opinion for a different reason than Mr Bragg.
No, not because of an exodus to the suburbs, but I base my hunch on the stories I have heard and read from Southtowners themselves.
There are plenty of professionals and people who are not native San Antonians (which enhances suspicions of disloyalty to our city).
So with that in mind I understand markets can be fickle and where the jobs are at might change from decade to decade. These professionals will follow their professions but hopefully San Antonio keeps growing and they remain as welcome additions to our city.
I can agree with this, but it is not the argument Bragg makes, nor is it significantly different from anywhere else in the city. People who have familial ties to the area may be less likely to leave San Antonio than those who don't and must move on for professional reasons, but that's true regardless of where you live in the city. While it's possible the Southtown area has more non-natives than some of the suburbs - probably because natives still harbor the myth that the inner city is 'bad" while newcomers are often seeking urban areas - so you may see more migration over time, that's not unique to Southtown.
will add - SAAMC medical personnel have started to discover Southtown with its easy access to base. Like military everywhere, they may be given moving orders at any time, so that may have an impact as well, but then I suspect the Sea World/AR area, where everyone directs new Lackland folks sees the same phenomenon.
If anything, Southtowners are fiercely loyal to Southtown though they may not be as loyal to the city as a whole if their livelihood requires them to move to another state (why stay in a place if you have no job?). That said, plenty of local business owners are non-natives and have placed their livelihoods in the hands of Southtown.
Bragg's argument was unrelated to yours, as he claims there are no children and in effect, no community.
If you're at all involved in the community, you know that there's much discussion of what is "Southtown" and frustration that those who have no idea of the area (city workers, for example, who put out maps! - and these are what those who write about Southtown but don't live here use) continue to give out clueless information. Those in KW who want to insulate themselves from the rest of Southtown are still powerful, but are shrinking in number. Like the community, the term, as it is used colloquially by those who LIVE here, is one of embracing - it embraces all as part of one community. Lavacans consider SoFlo and Lonestar residents as neighbors as much as we do KW and our own Lavaca neighbors, and vice versa (mostly).
I do consider Southtown more than the commercial corridor, which is what Southtown was officially meant to be (and this is also how the King William Association officially defines Southtown), since I understand the surrounding neighborhoods are also adopting the name Southtown for themselves.
So the area Southtown encompasses has expanded but in my opinion it has not expanded to encompass King William.
It was never said you were not neighbors, of course you all are neighbors.
As for those who "write about Southtown but don't live there" I suppose you might be able to count among them the administrators or webmaster of the Bonham Academy website.
Quote:
Bonham Academy is a historic inner-city public school providing education to students residing in the King William and Lavaca neighborhoods plus the Southtown area of San Antonio. Built in 1889, Bonham is part of the King William Historic District.
As for those who "write about Southtown but don't live there" I suppose you might be able to count among them the administrators or webmaster of the Bonham Academy site.
That's correct. It was written by SAISD and is horribly out of date. Discussions have been in the works to update it, but there have been roadblocks to doing so.
But it's not totally wrong, just poorly worded, as it includes all three names - if the writer was to look at the KWA map, the Lavaca Map, and the city's map of Southtown, Bonham would lay in all three. The only people who care that KW remain distinct are a limited few. It can happily remain distinct if it wants, but that doesn't detract from the overall point - this is one big neighborhood. And by "neighbors" I mean that we're all part of one community even if we have distinct historic district designations and association boundaries.
The author of the EN article doesn't distinguish between the neighborhoods though, after his initial statement saying 'next door to.' He makes confusing statements about the whole area which reflect his lack of understanding of the community. So I wouldn't take his geographic distinctions as evidence of anything.
FWIW - I usually DO distinguish where I live as separate from KW because it is, and the impression of KW residents is that they're all super wealthy (which isn't entirely correct) and we are not. But when it comes to discussing the community, we're all one. Note that I'm not saying KW and Lavaca are the same. "Southtown" is merely an umbrella term to cover all the local neighborhoods, OR it's a commercial corridor referring to S. St Mary's and S. Presa (S. Alamo is debatable). Either way, the way in which the author used the term reflected his ignorance.
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