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To be honest, many of the so called Riverside County's nice areas are, how can I say it, overrated any way. Unless you are rich, or very upper middle class, which I am not, you have to take a gamble on where to live these days. With the mortgage companies being very lenient in the late 90s-2006, it made it quite easy for, a certain group of people to practically live any where they wanted, when that was unheard of in the 70s, 80's and early 90s.
Areas, like Temecula, Murrieta, Menifee that were building homes for a certain income or class of people were finding neighborhoods with a mixture of all levels of incomes and people, who wouldn't other wise be in those types of neighborhoods.
Unfortunately, it will be just a matter of time when many of the so called nice areas of Riverside County mirror some of the toughest cities to raise a family in Los Angeles County. I hate to say this, but just look around the IE. How many cities can we honestly say are truly safe, have outstanding schools, and the crime is very low? Temecula, Murrieta, and depending on the person puts Menifee in that category, out of how many other cities in the IE-25 or so.
Temecula, like Compton, Paramount, Lynwood, Downey, and South Gate in LA County, started off with good schools very nice, very safe, and very clean, but eventually become not as desirable for a better word when people didn't fight back to keep those cities nice.
Some felt why stay in these cities when a certain class of people or racial group of people moved into those areas. Thus, these people decided it would better to escape while they could rather than stay.
So, this has been a common pattern happening in So. Cali's history, flight takes off and those same people taking flight move to places like Temecula, Murrieta or Menifee or the IE , thinking that some how these newer cities with the newer developments are going to remain safe, nice, and beaufiful.
Funny that you mention Downey. I grew up there, and yes, it was very safe and more upper class. Not anymore...now it's sceery. But I think you're right about all the so called "nice" areas turning into not so nice areas. I've been in Menifee for 12 years now, and lately do not feel as safe as I have in the past. I have noticed a decline in the city, and it seems like there are more unsavory characters hanging around. Hopefully it won't get as bad as Mo VAl did in the 90's.
To be honest, many of the so called Riverside County's nice areas are, how can I say it, overrated any way. Unless you are rich, or very upper middle class, which I am not, you have to take a gamble on where to live these days. With the mortgage companies being very lenient in the late 90s-2006, it made it quite easy for, a certain group of people to practically live any where they wanted, when that was unheard of in the 70s, 80's and early 90s.
Areas, like Temecula, Murrieta, Menifee that were building homes for a certain income or class of people were finding neighborhoods with a mixture of all levels of incomes and people, who wouldn't other wise be in those types of neighborhoods.
Unfortunately, it will be just a matter of time when many of the so called nice areas of Riverside County mirror some of the toughest cities to raise a family in Los Angeles County. I hate to say this, but just look around the IE. How many cities can we honestly say are truly safe, have outstanding schools, and the crime is very low? Temecula, Murrieta, and depending on the person puts Menifee in that category, out of how many other cities in the IE-25 or so.
Temecula, like Compton, Paramount, Lynwood, Downey, and South Gate in LA County, started off with good schools very nice, very safe, and very clean, but eventually become not as desirable for a better word when people didn't fight back to keep those cities nice.
Some felt why stay in these cities when a certain class of people or racial group of people moved into those areas. Thus, these people decided it would better to escape while they could rather than stay.
So, this has been a common pattern happening in So. Cali's history, flight takes off and those same people taking flight move to places like Temecula, Murrieta or Menifee or the IE , thinking that some how these newer cities with the newer developments are going to remain safe, nice, and beaufiful.
With that said, WELCOME TO CALIFORNIA!
While you are *almost* right, you have missed several critical points and your argument doesn't hold much water.
While you are correct about the decline of areas like Compton, Lynwood, South Gate, etc due to "white flight" and declining schools, property values, etc you need to look at several factors as to WHY these areas decline and it's not just because certain demographics moved in (although it does contribute).
Many communities in LA were thriving in the 60's and 70's, as well as several up and coming bedroom communities in the IE (Riverside, San Bernardino). Then we had several events over the next two decades that negatively impacted once "nice areas"
1. Base closures and aerospace/defense cutbacks. This lead to MANY local jobs being cut and communities falling apart
2. Corrupt city councils and politicians that sold off development rights for personal gain, mismanaged city resources (especially in Compton)
3. Prop 13. The passage of prop 13 is probably one of the biggest reasons many school districts are struggling. By limiting the tax rates for areas that had boomed in the 40's, 50's and 60's local services declined rapidly. As Los Angeles grew (see point 4) there wasn't enough funding from property tax to support school improvements. This also negatively affected funding available for public safety coverage and caused a dramatic rise in violence
4. Illegal immigration. Areas that have a large immigrant population already are more welcoming and encourage growth of larger illegal populations. This creates further stresses on schools already strapped because of prop 13 and creates an increase of gang violence
5. Lack of local planning, zoning, HOAs and CC&Rs. While many people decry the draconian measures of today's HOAs and CC&Rs, they are a critical component of helping retain a neighborhood or cities overall appeal. We've learned a lot from our mistakes in cities like Compton and the eventual conclusion was to adopt a forced method of "pride of ownership". If the owner can't be bothered to not park their cars on the lawn, then we'll make sure there is a public entity that has the power (HOA, City Services district) to fine and punish the owner to comply. Don't want neighborhoods full of fuscia and blue houses? HOA to the rescue. This has also helped to seperate neighborhoods from industry and retail, so you don't see a cement factory next to a house or a corner liquor store where the local gang hangs out. There are many people that spend time studying what causes the decline of neighborhoods and have adapted community planning techniques to minimize this. For example - section 8 low income housing. How does Temecula and Murrieta deal with this vs. Compton? Compton will put projects in the middle of a neighborhood. There goes the neighborhood! Temecula and Murrieta have intelligently provided low-income housing via senior living facilities. Low income? Check. High crime? Nope.
-------------
Now how do these points affect the area:
1. The economy in Southwest Riverside is large tied to two job markets - Orange County and San Diego. The local jobs are concentrated among Abbott, Pechanga, Pala, lots of small service companies, developers and TVUSD/MVUSD. If we were to lose Abbott - the area will face many, MANY challenges, but healthcare is an area that is poised to grow even in this recession. We have already seen the large expansion and investment of Abbott in the area. We are exposed to any possible base closures in San Diego - Miramar/Pendleton, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Pendleton is our main West-Coast front and unless we have world peace soon the base will remain open.
2. Our city council has proven to be well run and we operate a positive cash flow basis with millions of dollars in reserve funds to weather downturns. We can't predict the future of city government but there are several vocal groups that ensure our local officials are playing fairly.
3. Newer communities have circumvented prop 13 with high mello-roos. Temecula/Murrieta is no exception and residents definitely pay for superior schools. Older communities that were negatively affected by prop 13 don't have the demographics or the voter block that can support additional bond measures to help revive failing schools.
4. While I wouldn't say the area is immune to illegal immigration, it is definitely not a safe haven. There is no well defined immigrant neighborhood or local services that make SW Riv Co appealing to illegal immigrants. Add into it our proximity to the I-15 border patrol checkpoint and you have an area that is fairly well sheilded from large illegal populations.
5. Temecula is master planned and sub planned and sub-sub planned to the exact detail. The area is full of NIMBYs and sign jails and HOAs and CC&Rs and regulations and I love it. Sure, plans can fall apart in time but with the city almost completely built-out the current mix of residential, mixed used, commercial and industrial follows the same pattern of many succesfful, affluent South Orange County suburbs (vs. Los Angeles suburbs).
Also, you made a point about loose lending standards allowing a mix of people into "nicer" neighborhoods that normally wouldn't be able to afford it. I agree, however what we're seeing with the housing "crisis" is the folks that could never really afford a home (you know, the maids making $20k/yr buying a $500k house) are being foreclosed upon. The people making minimum payments on their ARM because they simply don't have the income are being flushed out and the neighborhoods are benefitting. Over the summer things were a bit nerve racking out here, as the number of brown lawns was growing daily, but I've been pretty active in the market over the last 5 months and there has been a slew of new activity. Many bank owned properties are being purchased now in either all-cash deals or with traditional loans. Some of the hardest hit neighborhoods now have very few homes for sale and I haven't seen a brown lawn in a while. Sure there is more pain to come, but after being out-bid on over 7 properties, I am confident the area is recovering with people that can actually afford these homes and that actually have assets/income to back it up.
-----
Anyway I know this post is long-winded and I might have glossed over a few areas but my main point is that it is a niave assumption that Temecula/Murrieta will follow suit of some of the worst LA neighborhoods, "just because". If anything our local influence has been more South OC, North San Diego than anything and I am confident the area will continue to work hard to preserve it's family friendly, affordable, "nice" status - especially as long as we have people that care about the area as much as I do.
While you are *almost* right, you have missed several critical points and your argument doesn't hold much water.
While you are correct about the decline of areas like Compton, Lynwood, South Gate, etc due to "white flight" and declining schools, property values, etc you need to look at several factors as to WHY these areas decline and it's not just because certain demographics moved in (although it does contribute).
Many communities in LA were thriving in the 60's and 70's, as well as several up and coming bedroom communities in the IE (Riverside, San Bernardino). Then we had several events over the next two decades that negatively impacted once "nice areas"
1. Base closures and aerospace/defense cutbacks. This lead to MANY local jobs being cut and communities falling apart
2. Corrupt city councils and politicians that sold off development rights for personal gain, mismanaged city resources (especially in Compton)
3. Prop 13. The passage of prop 13 is probably one of the biggest reasons many school districts are struggling. By limiting the tax rates for areas that had boomed in the 40's, 50's and 60's local services declined rapidly. As Los Angeles grew (see point 4) there wasn't enough funding from property tax to support school improvements. This also negatively affected funding available for public safety coverage and caused a dramatic rise in violence
4. Illegal immigration. Areas that have a large immigrant population already are more welcoming and encourage growth of larger illegal populations. This creates further stresses on schools already strapped because of prop 13 and creates an increase of gang violence
5. Lack of local planning, zoning, HOAs and CC&Rs. While many people decry the draconian measures of today's HOAs and CC&Rs, they are a critical component of helping retain a neighborhood or cities overall appeal. We've learned a lot from our mistakes in cities like Compton and the eventual conclusion was to adopt a forced method of "pride of ownership". If the owner can't be bothered to not park their cars on the lawn, then we'll make sure there is a public entity that has the power (HOA, City Services district) to fine and punish the owner to comply. Don't want neighborhoods full of fuscia and blue houses? HOA to the rescue. This has also helped to seperate neighborhoods from industry and retail, so you don't see a cement factory next to a house or a corner liquor store where the local gang hangs out. There are many people that spend time studying what causes the decline of neighborhoods and have adapted community planning techniques to minimize this. For example - section 8 low income housing. How does Temecula and Murrieta deal with this vs. Compton? Compton will put projects in the middle of a neighborhood. There goes the neighborhood! Temecula and Murrieta have intelligently provided low-income housing via senior living facilities. Low income? Check. High crime? Nope.
-------------
Now how do these points affect the area:
1. The economy in Southwest Riverside is large tied to two job markets - Orange County and San Diego. The local jobs are concentrated among Abbott, Pechanga, Pala, lots of small service companies, developers and TVUSD/MVUSD. If we were to lose Abbott - the area will face many, MANY challenges, but healthcare is an area that is poised to grow even in this recession. We have already seen the large expansion and investment of Abbott in the area. We are exposed to any possible base closures in San Diego - Miramar/Pendleton, but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Pendleton is our main West-Coast front and unless we have world peace soon the base will remain open.
2. Our city council has proven to be well run and we operate a positive cash flow basis with millions of dollars in reserve funds to weather downturns. We can't predict the future of city government but there are several vocal groups that ensure our local officials are playing fairly.
3. Newer communities have circumvented prop 13 with high mello-roos. Temecula/Murrieta is no exception and residents definitely pay for superior schools. Older communities that were negatively affected by prop 13 don't have the demographics or the voter block that can support additional bond measures to help revive failing schools.
4. While I wouldn't say the area is immune to illegal immigration, it is definitely not a safe haven. There is no well defined immigrant neighborhood or local services that make SW Riv Co appealing to illegal immigrants. Add into it our proximity to the I-15 border patrol checkpoint and you have an area that is fairly well sheilded from large illegal populations.
5. Temecula is master planned and sub planned and sub-sub planned to the exact detail. The area is full of NIMBYs and sign jails and HOAs and CC&Rs and regulations and I love it. Sure, plans can fall apart in time but with the city almost completely built-out the current mix of residential, mixed used, commercial and industrial follows the same pattern of many succesfful, affluent South Orange County suburbs (vs. Los Angeles suburbs).
Also, you made a point about loose lending standards allowing a mix of people into "nicer" neighborhoods that normally wouldn't be able to afford it. I agree, however what we're seeing with the housing "crisis" is the folks that could never really afford a home (you know, the maids making $20k/yr buying a $500k house) are being foreclosed upon. The people making minimum payments on their ARM because they simply don't have the income are being flushed out and the neighborhoods are benefitting. Over the summer things were a bit nerve racking out here, as the number of brown lawns was growing daily, but I've been pretty active in the market over the last 5 months and there has been a slew of new activity. Many bank owned properties are being purchased now in either all-cash deals or with traditional loans. Some of the hardest hit neighborhoods now have very few homes for sale and I haven't seen a brown lawn in a while. Sure there is more pain to come, but after being out-bid on over 7 properties, I am confident the area is recovering with people that can actually afford these homes and that actually have assets/income to back it up.
-----
Anyway I know this post is long-winded and I might have glossed over a few areas but my main point is that it is a niave assumption that Temecula/Murrieta will follow suit of some of the worst LA neighborhoods, "just because". If anything our local influence has been more South OC, North San Diego than anything and I am confident the area will continue to work hard to preserve it's family friendly, affordable, "nice" status - especially as long as we have people that care about the area as much as I do.
Thanks for being long winded. Only time will tell, and Moreno Valley is a classic case of well planning, nice sub-divisions, and yet crime is higher there than Temecula.
Thanks for being long winded. Only time will tell, and Moreno Valley is a classic case of well planning, nice sub-divisions, and yet crime is higher there than Temecula.
Moreno Valley is a tale of a "classic" IE suburb that was largely filled with refugees from LA. Because of the location the job markets available are largely limited to LA and Riverside. Also see my note above about base closures - The closure of March air field caused severe economic impact to the city and it depressed the area for a very long time. This lead to a large demographic shift from the area (white flight) - the city is now 70% hispanic and black, which mirrors many of the worst Los Angeles neighborhoods.
There are a few other reasons Moreno Valley has suffered the fate it has so far:
1. Proximity to San Bernardino and Riverside. The close proximity allows for gang activity and violence to easily spread into the community
2. Location in the LA basin. Because Moreno Valley lies in the general LA basin (along with Riverside and San Bernardino) it is greatly impacted by smog. It is also close to the mountains which means smog during the day tends to build up and saturate the air, creating a very ugly and non inviting area.
3. Lack of strong retail and industrial tax base. Because the city is so close to Riverside/San Bernardino it has been much of a bedroom community with only a few tax generating businesses in the city limits. This severly impacted the ability for city government to invest in critical saftey and education programs, as well as city beautificaiton and improvement.
4. Weather. Because it is so deep inland, Moreno Valley *feels* significantly hotter in the summer months than SW Riverside cities
---------------------------------
Why Temecula/Murrieta does not share these same characteristics:
1. Temcula/Murrieta is far enough removed from the San Bernardino/Riverside metro area that there is minimal spread of violence and gang activity. Look at South Orange county vs Compton. It is about the same distance but a world apart.
2. Temecula/Murrieta are not part of the LA basin and consistently have clearer skies and better air quality. As you go further down the 215 from SB/Riverside you see the skies start to open and a veil a smog lift from the air. This is also attributed to the rainbow gap allowing ocean area to sweep into the area mid-day and clear the skies. I'm not saying there is absolutely no smog, but there is a marked difference between the rest of the LA-basin IE (not including high desert, palm springs and mountain areas).
3. Because Temecula/Murrieta/other SW RivCo cities ARE so far removed from the Riverside/SB metro area, there is a significant retail and industrial tax base in the cities proper. Car dealerships, Abbott, Pechanga, the Promenade (which is the highest grossing Forrest City development: "It has astounded everyone, especially back in Cleveland," said Jones. "(The Promenade), on a dollar-per-square-foot basis, is one of the top performers in our portfolio."). This sales tax revenue has gone directly back in the city to fund major projects (such as the transformation in Old Town to Downtown) and provide city services to reduce the blight of foreclosed properties. Temecula also has plenty of tourism dollars from the Wineries and Old Town. It is a destination-city for many folks in San Diego and Orange county. How many people go to Moreno Valley willingly?
4. Temecula is the closest city in the IE to the coast and has a gap in the southwest hills that feeds in cool ocean breezes and allows the wineries to thrive. While day-to-day temperatures might be the same for other IE cities, the cool breezes make the heat more bearable. It is also the shortest drive to the ocean (25 minutes from South Temecula/Redhawk to Oceanside).
----------------------------
I'm not saying the area will ALWAYS be such a great place (the recession will take its toll across California and the loss of a major employer in the area (Abbott, Pechanga) would be devastating), BUT there are certain aspects of the valley that will prove to be desirable as California's population grows.
*It wouldn't be honest of me to not acknowledge that some of the worst areas in San Diego, LA and OC are much closer to the ocean than Temecula is, so I am not implying that anyone is moving to Temecula for "coastal living", but I am indicating some of the value Temecula/Murrieta holds over some of the other IE cities. No matter what, Temecula/Murrieta will ALWAYS be cheaper than prime coastal areas.
Also, I don't want to come off as a cheerleader for the area, but I have lived in several cities in LA/OC/SD and I spend a lot of time researching the history of cities and the reasons behind their blight or prosperity. I have been drawn to Temecula/Murrieta despite having the ability to work anywhere in the world. I've spent a lot of time trying to find out WHY I prefer Temecula and Murrieta to many of the other cities I've visited/lived in around the US and a lot of what I post is based on that research.
Funny that you mention Downey. I grew up there, and yes, it was very safe and more upper class. Not anymore...now it's sceery. But I think you're right about all the so called "nice" areas turning into not so nice areas. I've been in Menifee for 12 years now, and lately do not feel as safe as I have in the past. I have noticed a decline in the city, and it seems like there are more unsavory characters hanging around. Hopefully it won't get as bad as Mo VAl did in the 90's.
I think an important issue is word of mouth, if another person tells someone how tough a city is you can see how quickly it can spread. When your able to spend some time in certain communities, you can see for yourself what the area really is like.
I was the same way, I thought Paramount was the most dangerous city in the Wild West. I had heard my grandma and other white folks tell me it was gangstar zone. I found that to be far from the truth. I found very nice homes and a great neighborhood in Paramount. I had to drive through for myself, and see that their were normal people like me who care about the good things of life.
I find Downey to be extremely pleasant. I have been in the area and I think it gets a bad rap because people drive through and think there's a bunch of Latinos so there's a chance they might get shot or there's a high crime rate. There's alot of very nice homes in the Downey neighborhoods, and I find people to take very good care of their lawns. I find the community to be very tranquil and peaceful. After going through this neighborhood a guy told me Downey was ghetto, I found that to be quite amusing.
Last edited by SouthwestDriver; 01-04-2009 at 09:22 AM..
I think an important issue is word of mouth, if another person tells someone how tough a city is you can see how quickly it can spread. When your able to spend some time in certain communities, you can see for yourself what the area really is like.
I was the same way, I thought Paramount was the most dangerous city in the Wild West. I had heard my grandma and other white folks tell me it was gangstar zone. I found that to be far from the truth. I found very nice homes and a great neighborhood in Paramount. I had to drive through for myself, and see that their were normal people like me who care about the good things of life.
I find Downey to be extremely pleasant. I have been in the area and I think it gets a bad rap because people drive through and think there's a bunch of Latinos so there's a chance they might get shot or there's a high crime rate. There's alot of very nice homes in the Downey neighborhoods, and I find people to take very good care of their lawns. I find the community to be very tranquil and peaceful. After going through this neighborhood a guy told me Downey was ghetto, I found that to be quite amusing.
I think it depends on the person you speak with regarding any area. You have people who wouldn't ever be caught dead in cities that have developed a bad rap, and yet these same people would deny similar crimes happening in their so called upscale neighborhoods.
All you have to do is watch the news, and I find it quite interesting when someone is murdered or raped in an upscale area, they tend to call that area very quiet with expensive homes. You even hear people who live in those areas talk about how t hings like that just doesn't happen in those areas. It becomes comical, like only bad things happen in urban areas or cities with certain lower income people.
I think it depends on the person you speak with regarding any area. You have people who wouldn't ever be caught dead in cities that have developed a bad rap, and yet these same people would deny similar crimes happening in their so called upscale neighborhoods.
All you have to do is watch the news, and I find it quite interesting when someone is murdered or raped in an upscale area, they tend to call that area very quiet with expensive homes. You even hear people who live in those areas talk about how t hings like that just doesn't happen in those areas. It becomes comical, like only bad things happen in urban areas or cities with certain lower income people.
When someone is murdered in an upscale area, it is newsworthy. Out of the ordinary. When someone is murdered in Compton (or any other 'hood) it is a statistic. Why report a common occurrence?
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