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Since I've been here, I haven't felt as much as a quiver. I kinda wanna experience what it feels like though. Just as long as nothing falls on my head.
I've been next-town-over to Whittier Narrows (5.9) and right smack in Northridge for their 5.1 aftershock. It's like a C* ride at Disneyland except ... hey! ... you aren't strapped in!!!
*I'd have said a D or E ride, except earthquakes don't mess with gravity. You are getting shook up and down and/or rocked side-to-side. You are not being turned over.
Renting provides flexibility. Owning provides stability. Neither one is inherently better than the other.
Yes that's a big part of it. If you are nomadic, renting is better. If anything changes in your situation it is much easier and less costly to adjust as a renter than home owner. SD real estate is vexing to me. It actually is not too bad to rent here, but a mortgage payment is pretty high-although I only calculate 15 year mortgages at this point. What is making us remotely consider buying here is that we do not want to be one of those people who has to move when they retire becuase they can not afford housing anymore . If we have a modest place payed off by that time it would be great. Also I am not sure if the market has finished dropping yet either so I do not think anyone needs to be in a big hurry.
Yes that's a big part of it. If you are nomadic, renting is better. If anything changes in your situation it is much easier and less costly to adjust as a renter than home owner. SD real estate is vexing to me. It actually is not too bad to rent here, but a mortgage payment is pretty high-although I only calculate 15 year mortgages at this point. What is making us remotely consider buying here is that we do not want to be one of those people who has to move when they retire becuase they can not afford housing anymore . If we have a modest place payed off by that time it would be great. Also I am not sure if the market has finished dropping yet either so I do not think anyone needs to be in a big hurry.
Very true.
Everyone's situation is totally different. Some are working doing really well and are stable in the foreseeable future and others are not and struggling.
The retired folks that bought a long time ago here in SD are sitting pretty well if their house was paid off.
Prices will continue to trend downwards, but nothing magical. Houses are still selling a fairly decent rate....if the house is in very good to excpetional condition and price.
Generally, I dont think from a month to month price comparison you can buy something as nice as you can rent. Heck, I rented for 6 years here downtown, but at the same time was never for or against renting vs buying.
Regardless, if price go down between 5-10%, the inventory is crap or in a short sale position. This is why I have seen over the past couple of years, anything that is well kept and has some work done to it will not last more than a month. The others just sit there for well over 100 days due to condition or not pricing reflective of the condition.
Buying in San Diego close to 1 million is a feast. The 300-450k range is where you gotta be on your A game. Even then, it comes down to what you 'may' sacrifice in location renting vs owning.
10 years will be a nice time see how things pan out.
I agree completely with Shmoov's post. San Diego isn't for everyone. In fact, I'd argue that it's not for the majority of the people out there simply due to the bad economy and unemployment, and the high cost of housing here.
I'm going to totally dismiss the earthquake fears as I don't think most people living in San Diego worry about that risk at all. Maybe in other parts of California but not in San Diego.
I find San Diego an amazing place to live and raise a family. However, I'll say it's not for many people out there simply for cost of living reasons. Nothing to do with traffic, humidity, lack of change of seasons. I think a good quality of life for most people pretty much boils down to "can I afford it" issues.
Many people that move here because they thought it would be wonderful leave just as quick because they find they can't make it here. Heck, just in our daughter's preschool since the school year started, several of the parents that had their kids here have already left and moved to other places.
I'd stand in line with the other parents waiting for my daughter and talk with other parents and I'd hear stories of how some people moved here as they thought it would be amazing. Yet, only one parent worked and they didn't make much money. Some had 2 or 3 kids and living in a 1 or 2 bedroom apartment. Those are the type that move here and move out fairly quickly as they figure out they can't afford it here.
Definitely there are valid negatives in the OP's post, I still think a great quality of life in SD pretty much boils down to having a good job or plenty of savings/retirement/cash flow, etc.
There is plenty to complain about with any city around the country. I've been to most states and hundreds of cities around the world and San Diego is pretty amazing. So far, I've found little to complain about here.
I'd say one thing is people here can be a bit shallow at times. But I think that can be said for much of Southern California. I've met a few people where they seem only to be interested in where you live, what you do for a living, etc. I went into the doctor the other day and my physician was out so I saw his P.A. I kid you not, the first questions he asked me where "where do you live, what do you do for a living, where did you go to school, what was your degree in" and those sorts of questions.
Still, I've met plenty of great people here as well but plenty here can be shallow at times... But I'd say that is worth putting up with considering the other great things about the city. San Diego still seems to be the best city that I've ever lived in when you factor in the major things.
Aside from housing costs [and that is ownership; rentals in SD for a city of it's size, can be do-able] and lower than cost of living wages [but this has historically been true-referred to as the 'paradise discount'-but L.A. and OC pay is higher-so I think it's more to do with what the market would bear, for a smaller city. SD has grown immensely in the last two decades], SD is not more expensive than elsewhere.
Having grown up in New England, and lived several years each in CO, MT and N. CA., as well as 9 years in SD, here is what I have found:
*CA year round produce and food costs are on par and often cheaper than states needing to ship produce and that only produce minimal seasonal products themselves.
*Lack of winter means reduced costs for car and clothing budgets. Weatherization not a big issue, for car or home.
*Summers are relatively modest, too. It's really only a few weeks per year that SD proper gets really hot, and it's never humid like the rest of the country. [oh, except for MT and CO, but high altitude mountain heat is just as bad, let me tell you!] So, utlity costs, while high outright, are not that high, simply b/c they are not needed.
I don't find air quality or traffic to be a deal-breaker in SD, in comparison to LA, NYC, chicago and many smaller cities with horrid industrial air quality. True, SD air quality HAS gone downhill, but if you live outside of central Sd [which is almost everywhere-since SD is a spread out series of neighborhoods, essentially], the air is perfectly good, most of the year.
True, you do hit traffic if you wish to ski, and this is true everywhere I've lived: Weekend commuters to the ski resorts. Whether Boulder, or Denver or Missoula or Vermont-traffic is packed for ski seasons-everyone wants to go every weekend. SD and So CAL are no different. Same with beaches, say, on the east coast: Have you sat in hours of traffic to take the one small road to the cape or naragansett, for example?
Contrary, SD has many clean beaches with extremely easy access and plenty of free parking. Sure, I complain when i'ts crowded and avoid july and august, but really, LOL, it's hardly crowded compared to even laguna beach or santa monica, and certainly not as crowded as east coast can be. AND, you can actually swim in SD water.(: Truly, the beaches in SD are top notch. All easy reached by a short freeway jaunt, and in september and october, when the crowds are gone, we are STILL having summer weather [shhhhh.....],and noone's on those beaches. Those are the days when I think I have truly lived in paradise.
All that said, I don't like living in SD at all, as you can note from my other posts.
The OP has some valid points, but they are a bit exagerrated in my mind.
Still, it's a great quality of life, cost aside. And, really, I don't personally believe it's 'that' expensive, real estate being the exception. then again, if everyone thought they could afford it, well, SD would be far more overgrown than it already is/starting to be.
ps-I completely agree with people being shallow here. It's not intellectual, that's for sure. and judging a book by it's car/house/neighborhood, etc. is standard, for the most part. And you can get a 3 sentence coversation on a good day, before the other person shuts down.
Last edited by lrmsd; 12-21-2011 at 01:58 PM..
Reason: typo
What is the advantage that renting has over home ownership? I've done both, have been a homeowner for 12 of the last 13 years, and fail to see how renting is better in the long run. Assuming you can make the down payment and don't bite off more than you can chew on a mortgage, owning has far more tax benefits and other perks than renting.
I'm a renter myself. I'm not knocking ownership...but like others have said, you've being overly simplistic. Now, I will admit, I can't afford to buy, maybe a 1BR condo if I wanted to stretch. But renting and putting the difference in my 401K gives me more tax breaks than a mortgage ever would. I only make 47K per year, and the tax break for housing is only over and above the standard deduction amount. 401K contributions save you from the first dollar contributed.
I know most long term renters tend not to be very good savers in general...but there is the odd person like me who rents a studio apartment, and socks away a solid amount in retirement accounts. Everyone's situation is dfferent.
Y. What is making us remotely consider buying here is that we do not want to be one of those people who has to move when they retire becuase they can not afford housing anymore . If we have a modest place payed off by that time it would be great. Also I am not sure if the market has finished dropping yet either so I do not think anyone needs to be in a big hurry.
Bingo. That is something I really think you have to take into account. I've seen plenty of people that say renting is better and cheaper. The big problem is instead of banking that so called savings, they spend it.
Renting over the long haul or forever really forces you to be VERY disciplined so that when you are older and can't work or have the same level of income, you can still get by.
History shows us that most people out there aren't disciplined. And history also shows us that as you get older and especially in retirement, your income goes down drastically.
So if you decide to perpetually rent vs. buying, you really have to be disciplined and have a good game plan for the future when you're older.
People rarely think LONG TERM and only think about this year or next year. But really you MUST think longer term, especially when you're older and won't have the level of income as when you're younger. Time flies by so quickly.
In that respect, owning vs. renting just makes sense. I've done both. I sold my US real estate holdings back in 2003/2004 when I saw the crash coming. Then rented for 8 years. It was great as I was single, I could move around and do what I wanted or live where I wanted.
But once you have young kids, and you know you will be in one city for the long haul. I agree with the other poster that owning makes sense.
I do agree that real estate prices locally could go down some more in the short term but longer term (10 to 15 years) I'm confident that you will real estate prices in San Diego higher than peak levels.
Still, I think the most important thing is buying a home for a "home" and not an "investment". I think now is a fine time to buy. I agree you don't have to be in a hurry but people generally can't always time the absolute tops and absolute bottoms. The only people that are buying real estate are people that truly are buying for the long term.
If you know you will be in San Diego for the long haul, and especially if you have young kids and have that consideration... I think owning makes sense now.
It didn't during the bubble years when prices were out of control and insane. But now just looking at the rental prices vs. cost of buying and paying a mortgage it's starting to make sense.
But I wouldn't downplay the having a home paid off by the time you are retired aspect of it. That to me is a huge comfort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger
I'm a renter myself. I'm not knocking ownership...but like others have said, you've being overly simplistic. Now, I will admit, I can't afford to buy, maybe a 1BR condo if I wanted to stretch. But renting and putting the difference in my 401K gives me more tax breaks than a mortgage ever would. I only make 47K per year, and the tax break for housing is only over and above the standard deduction amount. 401K contributions save you from the first dollar contributed.
I know most long term renters tend not to be very good savers in general...but there is the odd person like me who rents a studio apartment, and socks away a solid amount in retirement accounts. Everyone's situation is dfferent.
I just saw this post after I posted as we were typing at the same time. Yes, that is EXACTLY correct and goes along with what I posted above. IF you are taking the savings difference and socking it away for retirement that is what makes the difference. The BIG important thing is discipline which most people don't have over the long run. Most people just have to buy that latest electronic gizmo, buy that new car, take that vacation, or eat out in fancy places. Like you acknowledged, you are the odd person that will actually save.
Also, something really important is not just to bank the savings but also do it in a way that isn't too aggressive. I've met the rare person like you that will save in a 401K or Roth IRA, but then they are totally reckless with their investments or too aggressive and ended up losing a large part of that with overly aggressive portfolios. So you have to think of that as well. Having a mortgage that is the same amount each month until it's paid off forces you to be disciplined even if you're not a disciplined person.
But like you mentioned, if you're disciplined so you will have that money when you retire to pay for a place, then it can make sense. Personally I'd still rather have a paid off owned property when I retire but definitely I know that it's not always possible. I also TOTALLY agree with you that people make too much of a deal out of the mortgage deduction.
Last edited by earlyretirement; 12-21-2011 at 03:32 PM..
In 1987, I cried, as I left San Diego after 40 years.
For me, it was the traffic, air quality, earthquakes but most important, I don't believe water is going to be available to the massive numbers of people in Southern California.
Unlike where I came home to: the Northwest, S. Ca. mountains do not produce enough snow and it doesn't rain enough - even if the cities (like San Francisco does), recycle rain water.
The Colorado River almost doesn't run completely to the Gulf and legally, most of the river's water belongs to Arizona. That is, what is left of it after being wasted in swimming pools in Las Vegas.
Herein is an article about the Salton Sea, which now hold only 2/3rd of it's original amount.
It's also something more: there is no way to get out, in the worst case scenario of any natural disaster i.e., a tsunami (about which there are warnings several times a year).
I didn't have to leave. I had created and built up several very successful companies but I had to leave to experience what is in my soul and if you put a fishing pole in my hand and let me sit on the banks of any river in Washington, Idaho or Oregon, if I can watch a bald eagle fly overhead, if I can watch an Orca whale "spiel" out of the Puget Sound, if I can walk in the cold wind on any N.W. beach, you couldn't pay me a million dollars to be back in one of the scariest cities in the world.
What put me over the edge, was back in the early 80's, when a sewage treatment plant in Tijuana overflowed into the ocean and used Kotex washed up onto the Coronado beaches outside the Coronado Hotel.
So, there isn't any one disaster to argue; it's a combination of many varying events, like the perfect storm that could bring people in S. California to their knees, with no way to get out.
Sorry to be the messenger, sorry to win this argument with the truth. Just get it figured out for yourself....I would follow the list provided by the Emergency Management System.
Why do you think people in S. Calif are superficial? Because they are in denial; you have to walk about in a hypnotic trance to ignore reality.
What is the advantage that renting has over home ownership? I've done both, have been a homeowner for 12 of the last 13 years, and fail to see how renting is better in the long run. Assuming you can make the down payment and don't bite off more than you can chew on a mortgage, owning has far more tax benefits and other perks than renting. As home values increase, renters enjoy none of the profits. They also have no control over whether or not they will stay there, which can be dicey when you have a job in the area or kids in local schools. People who don't own a home like to say how great renting is, but I don't buy it (no pun intended!) If you can afford to buy, you should. Renting should only be a fall-back position, in my opinion.
I am not bashing home ownership and I am hardly some bitter person with bad credit or having never had a home. My spouse and I are on our 4th home. Most of the millions who bought between 2003-2009 (apx) will need to wait a LONG, LONG time before they are not losing money if they sell. I am not talking the about the cases that put 0 down on mortgage they could not afford. example: we put WELL more than 20% down on a home, have excellent credit (score 760+ plus each), the mortgage was less than 20% of our income- hardly living out of our means. Guess what? We are out $70,000 in what was cash equity if we could sell and its so bad we could maybe owe the bank. I wish we had rented and had $70,000 in the bank or in actual investments.
With all that said if we had never moved, and were still living in the home, we would ok with the situaiton, although in no better position than renting until it was paid off. I am at the point that I believe if you are not going to live in a place for 15 +++ years for sure, don't even think of buying. we sold homes in the past after only a few years of owning and either profited or broke even, but those days are long gone. People could get "starter homes" or single person homes/condos and sell in a few years and do OK. This is not the case anymore.
I do feel annoyed, b/c at some point if we did not have money trapped (well lost) in our current place, we could put money down for a home here. Since we do not know if it has hit bottom yet, people buying today could be upside down if they need to sell (change in family composition, job, health, anything!) in the next several years.
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. If we have a modest place payed off by that time it would be great. Also I am not sure if the market has finished dropping yet either so I do not think anyone needs to be in a big hurry.
Water
