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Exactly. The green aspect is only the net result of the actual product. Not the sole intention of the product.
Instead of trying to find the needle in the haystack of what makes Tesla wrong, its much easier to just focus on what they are doing right. Clearly folks that have the means dont seem to be complaining much and really, in business, its the customers that dictate the ultimate success among other things.
The success of the company at this point is because of the Government. Similar to Solyndra.
They aren't making money on consumers buying these cars (they are in a sense), but they are making more money because the Other Auto Manufacturers are buying the tax EV tax credits off of Tesla.
If the Government decides to stop that or changes how it works or other Auto Manufacturers stop buying those credits, Tesla has to sell their Model S for $200K or they go out of business. I'd rather that not happen, but this is why most people see what they want to see and think "it's not green."
The US Solar Market was highly subsidized. Hell, places like Portland were giving businesses millions and tax breaks to open there. Solydra got a lot of subisidies to run their business. And failed. Tesla has been given tons of subsidies by the Government to run their business. For them to succeed they are going to have to figure a way to make a cheaper car or they are going to have to sell their cars for over $200K. Will the same people who spent $100K on the Model S buy the same car for over $200K? I don't know, but thats the reality of things.
It's not about what's good or what's right, it's about the company as a business. The industry as a business. If more manufacturers get into the fold, they stop buying those credits from Tesla. If the Government stops those credits, just like they did with the Hybrids, Tesla loses most of their revenue.
So the reality is Tesla isn't all that different than Solyndra in many ways.
So Tesla is like Solyndra because they are selling zero emissions credits to other companies? So does that mean every company selling carbon offset credits is also Solyndra in your view?
I just don't see the point in invoking Solyndra because the mainstream media picked up on it. Solyndra went bankrupt because they couldn't compete on price with Chinese dumped solar cells. I think it's premature to say Tesla would go bankrupt sans the selling of zero emissions credits. It's fair to say their initial business model may have changed as far as early production, capital investment, ownership stakes, etc., but none of this is analogous to the failure of the US solar production industry. If you want to compare Solyndra, compare it to the steel industry which is fighting dumping practices as well.
I made the jump yesterday and picked up a Toyota RAV4 EV. I'm having the wiring done tomorrow for the charger - the work is coming in much cheaper than planned which is great. To the prior messages saying we just need to wait for a sub $50K Tesla, it's out there already. The RAV4 EV is a joint venture between Tesla and their minority owner, Toyota featuring the same Tesla motor/battery/thermal battery management system that is in the Tesla vehicles (this is the exact system that was to be used in the Model S lower range vehicle that Tesla cut out earlier this year), all with a normal Toyota RAV4 shell around it. With the Toyota lease/federal tax, they're offering it on lease utilizing a $35K purchase price. I peeled out at the 1st stop light I took off from after leaving the dealer. This thing hits 0-60 in 6.7 seconds, faster than a Porsche Cayenne. All this, and it had 154 miles of range sitting in the battery when I picked it up, plenty to get from Carson back down to San Diego with plenty to spare. Incredible.
A lot of the talk about EVs is trying to force them into tiny, econobox, economy car segment. I'm not sure that's the direction they should take at this point. As much as fuel economy is a plus for EVs, the sheer performance gains of an electric motor vs a standard engine was a big selling point for me. That, and never having to waste time having to stop at a gas station.
Congrats NewEncinitas!! Super cool!
Pedro, I don't disagree with everything you say. In fact, I agree with you that Tesla uses really fuzzy math in much of their marketing materials and on their website. Even their estimates for how much it will cost to charge are off on their website just due to costs of some of the inefficiencies of charging. I do agree with you that they need to totally avoid that fuzzy math and confusing marketing numbers.
I also agree with you that when you really spec it out as it should be ordered with leather seats, the tech package (you'd have to be CRAZY not to get the tech package), the larger battery, the Performance (which is wicked wicked fast) and some other cool things including the jump seats if you have kids.....it gets over $100k. No ways around it.
I also agree with you that Elon probably has a big ego but then again many of these super successful types do. My friend and business partner actually knows Elon and he told me once that he is a bit of an arrogant guy. But he said he was the smartest guy he ever met.
[quote=NewEncinitas;31614881]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedro2000
T In my view, Tesla is not trying to be a "green" company, they are trying to be a tech company.
EXACTLY! Tesla isn't going for the "green" label. They are more or less a high tech company and being valued and traded like one as well. Man, I regret not buying them at $50 when I thought it might be worth a gamble. I simply can't justify the valuations now. Today it hit $194.50 per share! Holy crap.
Last edited by earlyretirement; 09-30-2013 at 02:29 PM..
So Tesla is like Solyndra because they are selling zero emissions credits to other companies? So does that mean every company selling carbon offset credits is also Solyndra in your view?
I just don't see the point in invoking Solyndra because the mainstream media picked up on it. Solyndra went bankrupt because they couldn't compete on price with Chinese dumped solar cells. I think it's premature to say Tesla would go bankrupt sans the selling of zero emissions credits. It's fair to say their initial business model may have changed as far as early production, capital investment, ownership stakes, etc., but none of this is analogous to the failure of the US solar production industry. If you want to compare Solyndra, compare it to the steel industry which is fighting dumping practices as well.
The entire solar industry didn't go out of business. Solyndra did. There are various reasons, some of which are Chinese solar panels being cheaper. But last time I checked, the auto industry is filled with cheaper manufacturers. It's a different industry, but Fisker went out of business after getting a ton of subsidies and money.
And I bring it up because if you've ever been to Tesla's HQ, it's down the street from where Solyndra used to be and nobody really thought that company was just going to die.
Tesla is like Solyndra because they both took a ton of Government money to run a business. They both got a ton of government subsidies to run a business. It wasn't like Musk risked his own money to go off and start Tesla or even SpaceX or even SolarCity. He's smart like that. Hell, his SolarCity company manufactures solar panels in China.
Anyway I would like to see them succeed, but the only reason they are such a success story up to this point is because of the US Government. They have made a profit because of subsidies and credits. Long term, you either have to figure another way to do business or you'll wind up out of business. And Tesla out of business to me would be terrible for the EV market considering the only other viable competitor Fisker already went out of business. He said he was a genius.
The entire solar industry didn't go out of business. Solyndra did. There are various reasons, some of which are Chinese solar panels being cheaper. But last time I checked, the auto industry is filled with cheaper manufacturers. It's a different industry, but Fisker went out of business after getting a ton of subsidies and money.
And I bring it up because if you've ever been to Tesla's HQ, it's down the street from where Solyndra used to be and nobody really thought that company was just going to die.
Tesla is like Solyndra because they both took a ton of Government money to run a business. They both got a ton of government subsidies to run a business. It wasn't like Musk risked his own money to go off and start Tesla or even SpaceX or even SolarCity. He's smart like that. Hell, his SolarCity company manufactures solar panels in China.
Anyway I would like to see them succeed, but the only reason they are such a success story up to this point is because of the US Government. They have made a profit because of subsidies and credits. Long term, you either have to figure another way to do business or you'll wind up out of business. And Tesla out of business to me would be terrible for the EV market considering the only other viable competitor Fisker already went out of business. He said he was a genius.
I agree with NewEncinitas you shouldn't and can't really compare Tesla to Solyndra. Also, not to mention the fact that Tesla totally paid back their government loan. Early I might add.
No worries Pedro. Tesla isn't going anywhere. If you are confident they will then short sell the stock if you are that confident.
[quote=shmoov_groovzsd;31615310]
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewEncinitas
Exactly. The green aspect is only the net result of the actual product. Not the sole intention of the product.
Instead of trying to find the needle in the haystack of what makes Tesla wrong, its much easier to just focus on what they are doing right. Clearly folks that have the means dont seem to be complaining much and really, in business, its the customers that dictate the ultimate success among other things.
As usual. You nailed it Shmoov. Funny, the guys I know (and I've met a TON and have many friends that own a Model S) aren't complaining about their cars. In fact, they love them and several like me ordered the Model X sight unseen. I have even met couples that love the car so much and they didn't want to share it that they bought 2 (one for him and one for her).
The only people that seem to be complaining about Tesla are (a) those that can't afford one or (b) those that are short selling it and getting crushed.
It wasn't like Musk risked his own money to go off and start Tesla or even SpaceX or even SolarCity. He's smart like that.
Musk invested nearly every cent he had to keep the companies from going under. This is from a May, 2010 article:
Quote:
The one thing he doesn’t have, by his own admission, is money.
“About four months ago, I ran out of cash,” he wrote in a court filing dated Feb. 23, reviewed by VentureBeat. That’s a problem not just for him but for Tesla, where he is the lead investor and chief product architect, as well as CEO. Musk’s willingness to funnel his own cash into Tesla has for years sustained the faith of fellow investors and reassured would-be car buyers in 2008 when the company’s finances were in perilous shape.
According to the filing — part of his pending divorce case from sci-fi novelist Justine Musk — Elon Musk has been living off personal loans from friends since October 2009 and spending $200,000 a month while making far less. Musk confirmed this in an interview with VentureBeat.
The only people that seem to be complaining about Tesla are (a) those that can't afford one or (b) those that are short selling it and getting crushed.
You are totally correct. You've gotten the opposition read like a cheap book.
This is a thread about the Tesla, so expect people talking about this great car, do you agree that it is a cool car? It may be expensive but, if somebody people can afford it, and enjoy it, let them talk about!!
As for me, I don't have it YET, so next year, expect to hear about the Tesla X from me, meanwhile, I am enjoying this.
27 pages of comments!! good thread..
Last edited by earlyretirement; 10-01-2013 at 06:56 PM..
Don't believe everything they tell you. Tesla received a hell of a lot of money from various sources. So yeah maybe he spent a few of his own dollars, but the company has a couple of other founders. They received close to $500 million from the US government. They received over $200 Million in VC funding.
They had a low IPO, then it went crazy. So him investing all his money to keep it running is a nice story, but the company received about a billion dollars in investments over the years.
And they are still receiving subsidies from the government to sell their cars. Like I said, they make more money selling credits than they do on their cars. Who knows how long that go on for. Nobody is buying credits for Hybrids anymore.
Don't believe everything they tell you. Tesla received a hell of a lot of money from various sources. So yeah maybe he spent a few of his own dollars, but the company has a couple of other founders. They received close to $500 million from the US government. They received over $200 Million in VC funding.
They had a low IPO, then it went crazy. So him investing all his money to keep it running is a nice story, but the company received about a billion dollars in investments over the years.
And they are still receiving subsidies from the government to sell their cars. Like I said, they make more money selling credits than they do on their cars. Who knows how long that go on for. Nobody is buying credits for Hybrids anymore.
I'm not disputing the fact that they received significant funding over the years. Prior to the Model S they had burned through all their cash and the only real revenue they had was from Roadster sales. They were on the verge of going under and the government loan essentially saved them. Other manufactures were loaned money under the same program too but they still have little to show for it. Tesla would be much more profitable if they weren't spending so much money on R&D.
I certainly don't fault them for receiving subsidies. Many other far more established and profitable companies from big box retailers to professional sports teams receive subsidies too and they don't get nearly the amount of criticism that Tesla does.
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Super cool!
