How do you feel about the trolley, and mass transit in general? (calculation, costs)

[NYSD1995]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

Santee to La Jolla Village:

by transit - 1 hr 35 min.
by car - 25 min.
by car with no gas - ???

Santee to Gaslamp

by transit - 1 hr 15 min.
by car - 21 min.
by car with no gas - ???

Santee to Coronado

by transit - 1 hr 45 min.
by car - 30 min.
by car with no gas - ???

That's a nonsense argument and just a contrivance to make your point. The fact is that even in a world with no personal cars, the only reason for a trip to take 3x or 4x as long is because of ****-poor planning on the part of those who laid out that transit network. The cost of time is so great that it is still not financially worthwhile for the majority of people who could and would use it (like me).

Cities building light rail do it cheap. They use existing rail infrastructure of which San Diego has very little. That which we do have is not anywhere near job or residential centers. It is often old freight rail that goes to and from decaying or under-used industrial areas. Light rail or any rail is not realistic without new rail line that actually goes to and from the places where people live and work. And new rail line costs billions. So either light rail is a fundamentally flawed transportation system or we need to make massive investments to make it feasible for people to actually use it. I support that investment but I don't see where that money will come from.

I drive a small car that gets 30+ mpg. Even with gas at 5,6,7++ bucks a gallon it makes no sense for me to waste my day on a slow-moving trolley. At 5 bucks a day for the trolley / bus it's not even cheaper, so there is absolutely zero incentive.

[YoungSanDiegoDude]

Originally Posted by Sassberto

That's a nonsense argument and just a contrivance to make your point. The fact is that even in a world with no personal cars, the only reason for a trip to take 3x or 4x as long is because of ****-poor planning on the part of those who laid out that transit network. The cost of time is so great that it is still not financially worthwhile for the majority of people who could and would use it (like me).

Cities building light rail do it cheap. They use existing rail infrastructure of which San Diego has very little. That which we do have is not anywhere near job or residential centers. It is often old freight rail that goes to and from decaying or under-used industrial areas. Light rail or any rail is not realistic without new rail line that actually goes to and from the places where people live and work. And new rail line costs billions. So either light rail is a fundamentally flawed transportation system or we need to make massive investments to make it feasible for people to actually use it. I support that investment but I don't see where that money will come from.

I drive a small car that gets 30+ mpg. Even with gas at 5,6,7++ bucks a gallon it makes no sense for me to waste my day on a slow-moving trollley. At 5 bucks a day for the trolley / bus it's not even cheaper, so there is absolutely zero incentive.

I definitely agree with this. San Diego doesn't even come close to providing a REAL public transportation network. I have to use the bus and trolley everyday, and I really don't like it all that much. The bus and trolley have a tendancy to not always be on time, and the fact that the trolley only goes through downtown, Mission Valley, and a sliver of East County is pretty frustrating. I can't wait until I finally get my own ride again, because having a car out here IS A MUST if you really want to get around, enough said.

[1AngryTaxPayer]

I have to be to work by 6, there is no way I could squeeze 3 hours of transit time into day to day activity. On top of that my kids are at two different schools miles apart so even if I could telecommute I'd still have the day to day stuff to contend with.

[worldlyman]

I don't believe that from downtown, South Bay and the East side, San Diego is badly served. The Trolley is OK. San Diego is sort of spread out and we have to see it in that context. But, socio-economic segregation is alive and well in San Diego and sadly the Trolley doesn't reach the upper areas of SD.

I actually had to commute to my car which was parked in National City when I used to live in the Gas Lamp for a few months.

But as far as security? If the Transit Police used more cops to make sure the stations are safe than to use a mass jackboot presence to verify tickets while inside the trolley, then the safety issue could improve.

I mean, it's ridulous as I've seen as many as SIX COPS enter a single Trolley just to check tickets and intimidate people!

Here in Houston regarding METRORAIL, the METRO police (the Transit Police equivalent here) are not as jackbooted. During certain periods (like a heavy, crazy time such as a Saturday night), they will simply post a few officers at the Wheeler Station to check people's tickets as they come out. I've never seen them go on the train themselves and check tickets.

San Diego Transit cops spend TOO MUCH time on the trains instead of actually safeguarding the stations, in my opinion.

[1AngryTaxPayer]

Originally Posted by worldlyman

I don't believe that from downtown, South Bay and the East side, San Diego is badly served. The Trolley is OK. San Diego is sort of spread out and we have to see it in that context. But, socio-economic segregation is alive and well in San Diego and sadly the Trolley doesn't reach the upper areas of SD.

I actually had to commute to my car which was parked in National City when I used to live in the Gas Lamp for a few months.

But as far as security? If the Transit Police used more cops to make sure the stations are safe than to use a mass jackboot presence to verify tickets while inside the trolley, then the safety issue could improve.

I mean, it's ridulous as I've seen as many as SIX COPS enter a single Trolley just to check tickets and intimidate people!

Here in Houston regarding METRORAIL, the METRO police (the Transit Police equivalent here) are not as jackbooted. During certain periods (like a heavy, crazy time such as a Saturday night), they will simply post a few officers at the Wheeler Station to check people's tickets as they come out. I've never seen them go on the train themselves and check tickets.

San Diego Transit cops spend TOO MUCH time on the trains instead of actually safeguarding the stations, in my opinion.

You have got to be kidding? Too many cops is a problem with you? Maybe try putting the Police Officer's hat on for a minute and think how it would be if you had to enter a gang ridden area. I bet you'd like to have a few of your own at your side.

[moved]

The San Diego Transit Cops are not cops - they're actually security officers. They have the powers to arrest someone, but the person that they arrest is turned over to the sheriff's department for booking.

I used to work for the company that pays them (Heritage Security). They work for MTS, but are not paid by MTS. MTS contracts Heritage as a payroll service.

[worldlyman]

Originally Posted by 1AngryTaxPayer

You have got to be kidding? Too many cops is a problem with you? Maybe try putting the Police Officer's hat on for a minute and think how it would be if you had to enter a gang ridden area. I bet you'd like to have a few of your own at your side.

Then why not answer the question why TOO MANY harass riders inside a trolley instead of protecting them at the stations?

Where are the cops when crooks break into my vehicle?

But they don't hesitate to follow it sometimes when I drive.

[worldlyman]

Originally Posted by moved

The San Diego Transit Cops are not cops - they're actually security officers. They have the powers to arrest someone, but the person that they arrest is turned over to the sheriff's department for booking.

I used to work for the company that pays them (Heritage Security). They work for MTS, but are not paid by MTS. MTS contracts Heritage as a payroll service.

That's interesting to know. So what about those citations they hand out? To whom do the violators pay?

[1AngryTaxPayer]

Originally Posted by worldlyman

Then why not answer the question why TOO MANY harass riders inside a trolley instead of protecting them at the stations?

Where are the cops when crooks break into my vehicle?

But they don't hesitate to follow it sometimes when I drive.

Do they have authority to do that? I don't think they do but I don't know.

[jetgraphics]

Originally Posted by Sassberto

I drive a small car that gets 30+ mpg. Even with gas at 5,6,7++ bucks a gallon it makes no sense for me to waste my day on a slow-moving trolley. At 5 bucks a day for the trolley / bus it's not even cheaper, so there is absolutely zero incentive.

I agree that if the rail system was limited to slow / local (many stops, short legs), it would be unpleasant.

Possible solutions:
[] local / express tracks or sidings for stops
[] computerized tracking of destinations (your train ignores stations that no one wishes to debark at)
[] multimodal design - high speed, long leg trains connect with other transportation systems (bus, taxi, trolley, subway, etc) at hubs.
[] lighter weight, faster accelerating trainsets to raise overall average speed.

FWIW - 12,000 mile / year @ 30 MPG = 400 gallons fuel
$5 / gallon = $2000 / year, or $5.47 / day
$7.5 / gallon = $3000 / year, or $8.21 / day
$10 / gallon = $4000 / year, or $10.95 / day
That doesn't include the capital cost of the vehicle, loan interest, maintenance, upkeep, tires, insurance, etc.
Example: $25000 car kept for ten years = $6.85 / day

Economic pressures will mount to the point that many will be unable to afford private vehicles. Let's hope that we can move toward the goal of providing alternative transportation as well as reducing the need for transportation (i.e. multiuse development).