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Old 11-18-2010, 06:11 AM
 
3 posts, read 9,499 times
Reputation: 19

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Again: thanks everybody for replying. I’ve just been reading all the replies. @ Rickers: don’t call me a snob for writing ‘high class’! I do not in the least bit mean to suggest that ‘high class’ is higher in a moral sense than anybody else. ‘High’ and ‘low’ class are unfortunate descriptions, but I have no alternative, but to use inverted commas.
I am not sure how I will define ‘high class’. Like Calbear11 said: we cannot discuss our way around the opinions that make up definitions and make them into shared facts. All your replies have been helpful in giving some ideas.
@ Bellalunatic and Cava 1990: Yes, I intend to study the elusive beasts J, using ethnographic research.
@ Alamo Andrea: (one of the first replies on the topic): please know that Paris and London are not as pretty as they have visitors believe! An example is Paris’s banlieues.

Then there is one final request that may become interesting: I assume that you are interested in this topic, or you wouldn't be on the topic. So I feel free to ask anybody who is interested in the research and willing to help me to accept my friendship request or otherwise add me to your contacts, so that we may be in touch when I'm in Oakland for the research from January 3rd to March 27th. Thanks.
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Old 11-18-2010, 06:24 AM
 
Location: Los Altos Hills, CA
36,659 posts, read 67,539,821 times
Reputation: 21244
^Excellent. +1

I wanted to add something else to the mix. Its sort of related to 'high class' and that is the relatively large number of wealthy Non-White households in Oakland. There are many upscale neighborhoods in Oakland with sizable African American and Asian populations.

In fact, I posed the question a while back looking for a neighborhood outside of Oakland that is comparable to Caballo Hills, that is both wealthy and has NO racial majority with 3 races each comprising a sizable percentage of the total, I got no response either because people didnt know or they werent interested(LOL)

Anyway:

Caballo Hills Neighborhood, Oakland
Average Houshehold Income 2009: $125,920(From Onboard LLC)
Pop Density: 984 per sq mile

Last edited by Green Irish Eyes; 12-11-2010 at 11:16 AM.. Reason: Copyright violation -- if you didn't take the picture, please don't post the picture.
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Old 11-18-2010, 09:34 AM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
28,226 posts, read 36,883,248 times
Reputation: 28563
Good point @18Montclair. Most neighborhoods in Oakland are much more diverse than really anywhere else. That's one of my #1 reasons for living in Oakland. :thumbs up:
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Old 11-18-2010, 09:07 PM
 
Location: THE USA
3,257 posts, read 6,128,472 times
Reputation: 1998
Anything North/East of Highway 13 between 580 and 24 is what you are looking for.

Check googlemaps.com
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Old 12-11-2010, 10:04 AM
 
Location: Alameda, CA
7 posts, read 7,738 times
Reputation: 14
high class oakland is when the gangs decide not to bump their hyphy music at 4am down macarthur blvd.
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:27 AM
 
Location: The Bay
6,914 posts, read 14,762,397 times
Reputation: 3120
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayAreaHero View Post
high class oakland is when the gangs decide not to bump their hyphy music at 4am down macarthur blvd.


^Obviously not aware of Bay Area music
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
28,226 posts, read 36,883,248 times
Reputation: 28563
Quote:
Originally Posted by nineties flava View Post
^obviously not aware of bay area music
+1
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:00 PM
 
2 posts, read 2,413 times
Reputation: 16
Excellent post. I have long read your (Montclair18's) often articulate, well-reasoned, and superbly supported arguments in favour of, as opposed to "in defense of," Oakland. Let me reiterate another post here that was mysteriously removed.

When discussing "high-class" in Oakland, one need not refer to Piedmont. As was noted, Piedmont represents a throwback to the age and landscape of the race/ethnic/religious housing restrictions (one might as well add class, obviously, but Americans tend to deny its power and existence). Piedmonters benefit from Oakland's infrastructure, for which they pay nothing, but nonetheless indulge in the lurid pleasure of feeling and expressing horror and contempt for the surrounding city.

Well, I would think that Oakland would get over it. After all, Oakland has a number of neighborhoods that compare nicely with Piedmont's. Indeed, a number of grand homes in Oakland's affluent to wealthy neighborhoods were designed by the very architects that annointed the exclusivist Piedmont its chateaux, estates, mansions, and gracious homes. Thus, Oakland's Montclair district streets such as Dawes, Estates Drive, La Salle, Wood Drive, Sommerset; or Crocker Highland's Ashmount,Ardmore, Rosemount, Clarendon Crescent; or upper Oakmore's Bywood and Liemert Blvd. are "high-class" precisely because they feature expansive, older homes designed by the likes of Albert Farr and Julia Morgan. Given that these homes start at one million dollars and range up to multi-million dollar purchases; given that their inhabitants are generally of "older money," and that the younger inhabitants of these neighborhoods took their degrees at the world's most prestigious universities (as was noted) and have skill sets and cultural clout that places them at the upper registers of American class ( a complex amalgam of money, education, skills, social vocabulary, and undoubedtly, and sadly, ever thriving American race, gender, and sexual orientation constructs of inequity), Oakland does have, for better or worse, a thriving "high class" culture and society.

It goes without saying that upper Rockridge, most notably Claremont Pines, is distinctively wealthy, or "high class," by the criteria aforementioned (and as mentioned in the now missing missive).

Montclair18 has compiled a generous and helpful gallery of photos capturing the grace and comfort of these aforementioned neighborhoods. I can see from the Oakland city photos, images of the expansive and especially expensive homes of Crocker Highlands, upper Montclair, Oakmore, and Hiller Highlands/northern fringe of Montclair. Montclair18's note about Caballo Hills is an interesting addition to the mix, being that it is a decidedly newer area of wealth, and perhaps this accounts for its very large influx of exceptionally wealthy African-Americans (homes start at around a million dollars and become multi-million properties the higher, literally, one goes up the hills). I suspect that although Oakland's older wealthy neighborhoods, particularly Crocker Highlands and Montclair, are far more racially diverse than their counterparts in, say, San Francisco, or Berkeley, African-American "strivers" have a collective memory of the racially discriminatory restrictive housing convenants (much as existed in San Francisco's St. Francis Woods or Forest Hills) that marred Oakland's wealthy neighborhoods in the past. There's a dissertation waiting to be written, I am certain, on the matter.

In any event, while I personally prefer the architecture and style of Claremont Pines or Montclair's most rarified climes, there is something to be said about the extra large homes and rambling estates of Oakland's Caballo Hills, although I suppose not a few of us would tire at some point of the African-American/Euro-American/Asian-American esquires gathering over Chardonay and comparing their trips to Tuscany and the latest news on the cuisine at Commis. It's all too "high-class," at times.

Finally, ever so finally, to disparage Rockridge as insufficiently "urban" in contrast to Nob Hill is absurd to the point of risible. First, "suburbs" in the contemporary American meaning denotes residential communities planned and built near to but utterly separate from economic engines/ cities. Modern American suburbs grew in the mid 20th century as a result of improved roads (thanks to the political machinations of the American automobile companies, especially in California) and, in the East, localized rail systems. Race, or more accurately, American racism, drove (no pun intended) the development of suburbs, especially after the Brown v. Board of Education in a phenomenon known as "white flight."

By contrast, a neighborhood Rockridge represents the return of younger, educated whites to the cities, which can epitomize the phenomenon of "gentrification" at worst (think of it as white flight in reverse, by which affluent whites colonize mixed or minority neighborhoods, and force out minority/working class/marginal communities by raising housing costs and social/class/ethnic alienation, as witnessed in Williamsburg, Brooklyn, NY) or, at best, what Jane Jacobs championed in her landmark work, The Death and Life of Great American Cities.

I know and like Nob Hill. My wife lived there when we were ever so much younger (we live on the East Coast now). Nob Hill is expensive, but there is really nothing special about it: there are no restaurants, boutiques, libraries, and explorers from San Francisco's nearby Tenderloin will mug you or worse if given a chance. "Urban"? Why not mention Adams Point or the ring of apartments around Lake Merritt? That area has a similar feel to Nob Hill; in San Francisco, you get the view of the bay, and Oakland's counterpart, a view of the lake. And in both places, you can get increasingly pricey homes and apartments with the added thrill of getting mugged on occasion. The same could be said of certain "urban" New York or Chicago neighborhoods, for that matter.

Rockridge, once truly quaint (and getting a might bit too precious for my tastes) is, in the end, an urban neighborhood within a city's borders. It is not "suburban" by the contemporary definition. Rockridge residents PAY taxes for the infrastructure Oakland provides, unlike the denizens of Piedmont. Unlike the creatures of Piedmont or the habitues of San Rafael in contrast to their magnet city, San Francisco, Rockridge residents have a vested, and deep stake in the fortunes of their city:Oakland.

One wonders as to the motivations of those select few who, in attempt after attempt, thread after thread, post after post, slag Oakland despite the myriad evidence brought to bear from Montclair18 and other judicious contributors.

As the post said, we have to look very closely at the subtext of this often dishonest, always disparging "commentary" (trolling?). As that post said, racism, not so thinly disguised, seems to motivate such commentary, especially given that the descriptions of Oakland given diverge radically from the realities of the city, and that the depiction of the city's inhabitants seems to converge all to cleanly with those familiar coded racisms of one certain American political party and (conservative) culture and discourse, a stream linking Nixon's veiled "Law and Order," to the more recent, "Where is his birth certificate."

Last edited by P-VidalNaquet'sFriend; 12-14-2010 at 06:14 PM..
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Old 06-17-2011, 09:22 PM
 
Location: Orland, Ca
2 posts, read 2,177 times
Reputation: 18
I lived in East Oakland for 30 years and moved up north to Orland, Ca. 100 miles north of sacramento in 1979. I went to fremont high and graduated. Oakland is what you make it. I never had problems in oakland. I lived between 38th ave and high street on Lyon ave.
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Old 06-17-2011, 10:50 PM
 
Location: Los Altos Hills, CA
36,659 posts, read 67,539,821 times
Reputation: 21244
Quote:
Originally Posted by miss_jenny View Post
I lived in East Oakland for 30 years and moved up north to Orland, Ca. 100 miles north of sacramento in 1979. I went to fremont high and graduated. Oakland is what you make it. I never had problems in oakland. I lived between 38th ave and high street on Lyon ave.
Hi and Welcome to C-D.

The neighborhood that surrounds Lyon Av is still a solidly middle class area that nowadays is dominated by upwardly mobile immigrants(mainly Hispanic) and African Americans. I really like how that area has been able to maintain its character without descending into high crime.

Its really interesting about Oakland that so many of the main streets look far worse than the neighborhoods found in between them. LOL.
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