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While that's not a bad salary, do note that the crazy high income taxes and sales taxes will seriously eat into that income. The cost of living is way higher in SF than the cost of living calculators predict. For a similar living standard, the cost of living in SF is at least 3 times higher than Dallas. So count on your lifestyle being very basic at that income in SF. Any decent livable one bedroom apartment in a low crime part of SF will be at least 2000 or more. Or you can choose live in the horrid weather in western SF and pay a little less.
I strongly advise you to move only if this job opens up long term good career prospects for you. IMHO, the high cost, bad weather, unfriendly/rude people and a superficial/materialistic culture makes SF a pretty bad place to live for anyone coming from TX.
^^^^^OP, please don't listen to this guy. I am the first one to admit San Francisco's faults, but this guy is overly negative.
im not to sure what areas of san francisco youve been roaming around in....but hey whatever you say pal.
bldr0720 - you will have to come to SF and see what is like and judge for yourself. everyone will have different opinions about places so dont let all the negative comments discourage you.
^^^^^OP, please don't listen to this guy. I am the first one to admit San Francisco's faults, but this guy is overly negative.
I am not overly negative! I did the same move the OP is planning. I am just giving a realistic idea about what to expect. Why don't you refute my argument instead of making blanket statement?
If the OP has only the SF job as an option then the move makes sense. If the OP has options in Dallas or other good cities then moving to SF will be a total waste of time, disruption and serious disappointment in terms of what the city can offer.
Only positive of bay area IMHO is the great outdoors and access to nice places in CA like Napa/Sonoma, Tahoe, Sierra etc. Everything else is huge negative!
bldr0720 - you will have to come to SF and see what is like and judge for yourself. everyone will have different opinions about places so dont let all the negative comments discourage you.
I am certain that if the OP spends 1500 a month to live in tiny studio in the filthy tendernob area or spends the summer in a dumpy in-law apartment in the sunset, even rural OK will seem more appealing! Living in Marina or Mission with 3 roommates in a 2 bedroom apt is okay with some people for whom acting hip and cool is too important, but many educated people would avoid that kind of slum living.
Without knowing your other options you may be making the right move but it makes me nervous to hear you say you want to spend less than $1500 on an apartment in the areas you mentioned, and makes me wonder if you fully understand the cost of living situation here. As Andy mentions, the cost of living calculators are wrong and understate the cost of living here substantially. The issue is they don't do apples-to-apples on anything, particularly housing, and don't account for tax bracket differences associated with an upward shift in income. My prior life is in the hedge fund industry, designing models for CDO's [I predicted they would all fail, got fired, and had to get a new job] so trust me on this one or if you want I'll send you some excel comparisons to try out.
On $90K/yr (let's assume you get the target bonus), you will be able to make ends meet and have some left over for savings or luxury [pick one], but it's not going to be all models and bottles either. If you are planning to stay here for any considerable period of time, you will want to be very confident that the 90K job is going to turn into much, much, more over time, or else you had better have very low ambitions for quality of life in the long term. I don't know what industry you're in, but you should know that many jobs here--particularly in finance--are technology-focused and not replicated elsewhere. You could be pinning yourself into the local economy for life (or at least the duration of your career) by developing initial roots here. Be careful. I am no longer in finance, but this happened to me in my new industry, and it is really devastating.
I agree that you may be looking at a studio if you really want to keep it under $1500, in a safe area, and within a reasonable distance to work. I used to pay $2100 for a studio (with a parking spot) around a mile from the financial district in SOMA. You can get a cheaper studio for sure (I lived in a second-tier luxury building with a gym and all that nonsense--but this was years ago, rents have gone up), but still $1500+ (if less, very run down) in the areas you mention. Something to think about.
Many of the areas people are going to suggest as reasonable are actually 45+ minute commutes to the financial district of San Francisco. I know traffic can be bad in Texas, but what is considered a "Reasonable" commute here will blow your mind, so be very clear on that. Something to think about.
Even getting from one part of SF to another, due to San Francisco's third-tier public transit system, can take upwards of 40 minutes depending on the from and to areas. This is not Manhattan; it's not a town designed around the working man. The public transit system seems to have been designed without any real thought to the basic goal of connecting housing to jobs. That's a problem I have never seen elsewhere. Anywhere. Globally. The side point here is what this implies about how local government functions (or doesn't), but I don't have the energy to get into another argument tonight, so I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader.
Parking downtown is 300+/month and you will likely pay 200/month (either separately or embedded/imputed in the rent) in a typical residential area. That's 6K/year just to park. Something to think about. Your employer may have a flex plan to allow some of that to be pre-tax, but still, that's nearly 10% of your base income on parking.
The bus system is relatively good compared to the other public transit here. The bus system can be tough to figure out, so keep in mind the possibility of bus as opposed to the rail lines when you look for a place, that will help.
I am certain that if the OP spends 1500 a month to live in tiny studio in the filthy tendernob area or spends the summer in a dumpy in-law apartment in the sunset, even rural OK will seem more appealing! Living in Marina or Mission with 3 roommates in a 2 bedroom apt is okay with some people for whom acting hip and cool is too important, but many educated people would avoid that kind of slum living.
Completely accurate. The OP has a master's degree. He's getting a little old to be living in a studio apartment. Merits aside about whether it's normal to be comfortable with this lifestyle, the fact is, it's undeniable that someone from a typical place is likely to have trouble adjusting.
Without knowing your other options you may be making the right move but it makes me nervous to hear you say you want to spend less than $1500 on an apartment in the areas you mentioned, and makes me wonder if you fully understand the cost of living situation here.
On $90K/yr (let's assume you get the target bonus), you will be able to make ends meet and have some left over for savings or luxury [pick one], but it's not going to be all models and bottles either. If you are planning to stay here for any considerable period of time, you will want to be very confident that the 90K job is going to turn into much, much, more over time, or else you had better have very low ambitions for quality of life in the long term. I don't know what industry you're in, but you should know that many finance jobs here are technology-focused and not replicated elsewhere. You could be pinning yourself into the local economy for life (or at least the duration of your career) by developing initial roots here. Be careful.
I agree that you may be looking at a studio if you really want to keep it under $1500, in a safe area, and within a reasonable distance to work. I used to pay $2100 for a studio (with a parking spot) around a mile from the financial district in SOMA. You can get a cheaper studio for sure (I lived in a second-tier luxury building with a gym and all that nonsense--but this wasyears ago, rents have gone up), but still $1500+ (if less, very run down) in the areas you mention. Something to think about.
Many of the areas people are going to suggest as reasonable are actually 45+ minute commutes to the financial district of San Francisco. I know traffic can be bad in Texas, but what is considered a "Reasonable" commute here will blow your mind, so be very clear on that. Something to think about.
Even getting from one part of SF to another, due to San Francisco's third-tier public transit system, can take upwards of 40 minutes depending on the from and to areas. This is not Manhattan; it's not a town designed around the working man. The public transit system seems to have been designed without any real thought to the basic goal of connecting housing to jobs. That's a problem I have never seen elsewhere. Anywhere. Globally.
Parking downtown is 300+/month and you will likely pay 200/month (either separately or embedded/imputed in the rent) in a typical residential area. That's 6K/year just to park. Something to think about. Your employer may have a flex plan to allow some of that to be pre-tax, but still, that's nearly 10% of your base income on parking.
The bus system is relatively good compared to the other public transit here. The bus system can be tough to figure out, so keep in mind the possibility of bus as opposed to the rail lines when you look for a place, that will help.
Thanks for the reasonable and logical post in the face of meaningless chest thumping of SF lovers.
The transportation system in SF is beyond pathetic. SF might be only the city in the world where all the major transportation infrastructure is designed to bypass the city. There are two short freeways in the city, 101 & 280. Both of them pretty much just touch eastern and southern part of the city and run far from population and employment centers. It takes more than 30 min in rush hour to simply access the freeway from downtown, and then you deal with the insane 101 traffic and bridge traffic. The densely populated northern half of the city and the entire western part has no freeways at all. The major rail transit BART runs through a tiny part of Market street and Mission district. BART is useless in the city. It is designed for suburban commuters and pretty much bypasses the city. Caltrain does not go to downtown SF! The city planners of SF were possibly drunk, high when they designed the city or they were the biggest morons ever responsible for urban planning.
The parts of SF with livable weather i.e. Potrero, Bay View/Hunters point etc. are really bad neighborhoods with terrible problem with violent crime. The relatively safer western part has possibly the gloomiest weather anywhere in mainland US.
Muni, the only transportation option in the city is so slow (average speed < 7 mph!!!) and irregular that you are probably better off walking or biking. Pretty much anyone who can afford a car doesn't ride Muni. But then the city thinks of itself as transit oriented and does everything to make life of drivers difficult even though majority of people in SF do drive!
Why some people think SF is livable is simply beyond me. I suspect most of these are young hipsters for whom living close their favorite bar and music venue with 10 other roommates is the definition of good living. The other group are wealthy people who are wealthy enough that they do not need to work! For vast majority of working professionals, the city is pretty dysfunctional.
SF is a good place to visit as a tourist for few days but its a terrible city to live.
Wow, thanks for the quick response and all the congratulations! I am excited, but nervous as well. I am coming from Texas/Oklahoma; I just finished my Master's in Oklahoma, but am from the Dallas area.
Yes, I just want to make sure I know what is safe, good areas, etc. I am not looking to spend over 1500 or so for rent, and I will have a car. Thanks again for the great help!
I have a few points to make...
1. Overall, San Francisco is a great city and a wonderful place to live. I've lived across the country and spent a few years overseas. There's an abundance of culture, restaurants of every cuisine imaginable, museums, parks, hiking, beach (although it's too cold to swim most days, bon fires are allowed though), a nice bar scene and much more. It's not perfect, but out of all the cities I've lived in San Francisco is in my top two favorites. I actually miss the weather. It beats the hot humidity in Florida and the freezing cold winds in Alaska. If you want heat during the summer, you can drive 30 minutes in any direction and be in perfect summer temperatures. You have wine country only an hour away. It's a great city in a great part of the United States.
2. Here's what I don't like... a high homeless population and expensive real estate/rent. I currently live in Alaska, where housing is affordable. However, that does not mean the cost of living is affordable. The average restaurant in Alaska is between 50-100% more than San Francisco. Groceries are a lot more expensive. Utilities are a lot more expensive. Gas is a lot more expensive. My point, all the trolls here will scare you with the cost of living as if real estate/rent is the sole factor in calculating your cost of living. If you take away housing, San Francisco isn't that much higher compared to most major cities.
3. However, the previous "trolls" do have valid points about rent prices. The areas you listed are top notch and with $70k you can afford to live there, but it's not going to be for $1500 or less. You can find a less desirable studio in these areas and maybe a nasty 1 bedroom. You also have to remember most apartments don't include parking. Most houses (apt buildings) don't have garages, so you will have to find a space to rent for $200-$400 per month. You will occasionally come across some good deals. My cousin had a 1-bedroom apartment in Pacific Heights for $1900 that included garage parking. I have some friends that live in a developed apartment complex called the Filmore Center. I'd recommend it since you have a car. They love it. It's above your price range, but still under $2,000. The neighborhood isn't good, but the immediate area around the complex has some great restaurants and is safe. There's a cool music venue there too. I'm sure you already understand this, but for the same price you'd pay for a 3,500 sqft house in Dallas, you'll get a 1,000 sqft apt here. I currently live in a massive house with a view you'd see on the discovery channel, but I'm in the process of buying a property in San Francisco. The amenities the city offers is worth downsizing where I live.
I received a job offer to move to San Francisco, is 70k enough for a single young guy to live in San Francisco? I also have the potential to get a 30% bonus as well...
Here is the bottom line. 70k/year translates to about 4K/month after taxes in CA and assuming you don't save for retirement. Unless you have roommates you will pay at least 2k/month for rent and 200 for parking. That leaves 1800 for everything else. Now 1800 might sound a lot for someone starting a career but it doesn't go far here if you have to pay for gas, insurance and car payments. Everything costs a lot here...food, groceries, personal services. clothes and so on and so on.
On a 45K/year income in TX you will have 3K/month in take home pay and studio/one bedromm will cost 600-800/month in the best parts of Dallas and cost of parking will be zero. So you will have 2200-2400/month left for everything else as opposed to 1800 month in SF. Price of many household stuff, brand name clothes, groceries, gas etc are at least 30-50% cheaper in Dallas. Personal services like haircut, car maintenance etc. cost half as much in Dallas.
So you can do the math. Trust me, the charm of SF will quickly vanish into thin air once you find out that you live paycheck to paycheck for a standard of living that is very basic by US standards. You can still move here but you will have to get used to living like a bum and consume nothing except food and buy clothes once a year and get rid of your car altogether.
Enjoy your move to SF and embrace third-world living
I'm sure you already understand this, but for the same price you'd pay for a 3,500 sqft house in Dallas, you'll get a 1,000 sqft apt here.
If that were true, the situation wouldn't actually be that bad. In fact, what you are describing is what people expect when moving to a big city, and it is that narrative, that sucks people in. The idea that it's a little more expensive. If it were really like that, I wouldn't be on here complaining, trust me.
Reality differs from your account. That's where the problem comes in.
The 3500 sqft house, ultimate luxury, in the best area of Dallas is, let's say, $500K, and of course comes with 2 parking spots at least. I am being generous to you here saying $500K, we all know it's less. There might be a couple hundred a month in HOA fees on top of that.
I live in an apartment just barely over 1000 sq. ft. in a mid-luxury, lower-first-tier part of San Francisco. The real story is: my 2-bedroom, 2-bath place, is worth about $1.1 million. Parking is separate. HOA fees would be around 900. (I rent it so I don't know the exact HOA. I know the exact price because identical places have been sold recently above and below). After capitalizing in the parking and HOA fees to do an apples-to-apples, the SF apartment is well over twice as much as the comparator.
Now, granted, that figure could go down to $700K in a normal part of town--perhaps a little further out from center--but likewise, you can find a 3500 sq. ft house in a normal part of Dallas for around 300K.
Thus, the real comparison is either: (A) a 1000 sq. ft apartment in San Francisco (2 bed, 2 bath) to a 6,000 sq. ft manor with acreage in Dallas; or (B) a 500-600 sq. ft studio/"junior 1 bedroom" apartment in San Francisco (0/1 bed, 1 bath) to a 3,500-4,000 sq. ft McMansion in Dallas.
The reality is around a factor of 2 off from where you are quoting. That's the problem. If it were really a choice between a 1,000 sq. ft apartment and a 3500 sq ft house, that would be excellent. It's not that pretty though.
By venturing into places with very long commutes or high crime, these figures can go down dramatically for either location, but this is the basic scenario.
Last edited by cardozoj; 12-27-2010 at 02:22 AM..
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