Advice on moving--San Francisco vs. Sonoma area (Oakland, Santa Rosa: appointed, home)

[alliance]

Hello,
I have a couple of job opportunities and was hoping for advice/opinions on the areas. I am 28, single male (straight), so social opportunities are always a concern.
The options:
SF in the outer Sunset district. I know it gets very foggy, but how bad is it really? I don't necessarily have to live there, and don't mind driving 25-30 minutes from other parts of the city. Where would be the best parts of the city to look? I'm not a huge nightlife kinda guy, so clubs and that such aren't a necessity.
Sonoma county, in the Occidental region. Where would be the best area to live? Sebastopol? I just visited this area this week and it is amazing. I had no idea this whole region even existed. Any areas in particular that would be better for meeting people in their 20s?
Thanks.

[StandingRoomOnly]

I would consider Sebastopol and Occidental very "sleepy" towns...fine for a family, but for someone single much more sleepy and isolated than you'd probably want--beautiful yes, but would likely get lonely unless you already know people your age who live there. SF would offer more opportunities to meet people your own age, but there are always nearby towns like Berkeley too. Check out meetup.com for groups in the areas you want to move...you may find a group you'd more likely get involved in and see how many groups are offered in the places you are looking to move. Even if you don't end up using meetup.com it'll be a good gauge.

[clongirl]

I think it all depends on whether you want to live in a rural , laid back, quiet, environment or an urban environment.

Honestly they couldn't be more vastly different.

The Sunset/Outer Sunset districts can be foggy and cold a lot of the time. You'll often wake up to fog, then it burns off around 11am then two hours later comes rolling in again! It all depends on

BUT--there are sunnier neighborhoods that aren't far from where you need to be for work. San Francisco is actually a very compact city- you could actually walk the length in several hours (if you wanted). If you need sun, then keep looking eastward. W/O getting specific right now, if you look at a map of San Francisco, draw a visual line down the middle of it and everything east is going to be sunnier--fog burns off first and stays that way most of the day. If you want to be on a quiet street, stay off of the main bus lines and thoroughfares.

Sebastopol and those areas are gorgeous...but think Bed and Breakfast Inns, honeymooning couples, wine country greenery and a more local feel. There's no hustle and bustle at all. The weather is warm in the summer and for most of the year.

I couldn't tell you how anyone would fare socially however. I read a lot of comments about San Francisco being a lonely place...hard to make friends--which might be true depending on your personality. You'll definitely find more people of your age group in the City, but whether or not you'd actually befriend anyone is subjective. So many people of your age tend to blow in then blow out. It's a very transient place. I have no idea about Occidental--might be easier since I'm sure you'd see the same locals hanging out wherever you went over time..I'm only guessing though!

Hope this helps a little!

[uptown_urbanist]

The Sunset can be foggy. It's also a lot quieter than many parts of the city. But, as noted, sunnier neighborhoods are nearby, so it's not a big deal. If you want more bustle you could also head to the Inner Sunset, or to any number of other neighborhoods nearby. I'm not sure where the fog lines are in the Sunset, but where we lived (in the Richmond -- which is also a great area, just on the other side of Golden Gate Park) the Outer Richmond ("outer" being those areas closest to the ocean) definitely got a lot more fog than our place in the Central Richmond, and we got more fog than those who lived in the Inner Richmond. Not that it was all foggy all the time, but it was definitely not somewhere to live if you need a LOT of sun.

[skyway31]

I work in the area where Forest Hill and the West Portal area meet. That, IMO, has to be the most underrated part of the city. It is quite attractive visually, with lots of greenery and some actual front yards. Much quieter than the more well known parts of the city. At the same time, you can be walking distance to the West Portal Muni subway station. That Muni subway is THE way to take public transportation in the city if you can make it work for you based on where your job and residence are. From West Portal-which feels like another world from the well-known parts of SF-you can be smack in the middle of the financial district at Montgomery and Market in like 13 minutes. That subway is always running and is quite clean and comfortable in contrast to Muni buses. I can't comment on frequency of spring/summer overcast as I've only been here this month. But, like has been said here, you can be in a sunny 'hood in very little time. It's like 4 minutes to the Church stop, which is in the Noe/Mission/Castro area which is arguably the sunniest part of SF.

There are MANY ways to meet people your age without getting into the nightclub scene. WAKA kickball; sports4good; urban diversion; outdoor adventure club; sfkayak.com are all solid options as far as getting involved and meeting people.

[mayorhaggar]

Muni Metro can suck though especially if you have to take it every day because it's so erratic in terms of frequency and either you have to wait a long time between trains or they run too many and they get stuck in the tunnel behind one another. It would probably be more like 20-30 minutes from Montgomery to West Portal, it's about 10 alone from Montgomery to Van Ness and that's with no stoppages.

Anyway, hopefully you're driving to the Sunset. The Sunset is pretty boring in the outer areas as you go west, there's less public transit than in other parts of the city and you can go for blocks and blocks without seeing any restaurants or retail, so it's not very walkable. There are some streets with commercial stuff from one end to the other though, like Irving. The Inner Sunset like around 9th and Irving has a lot of bars and restaurants and shops. Cole Valley is kind of an extension of the Inner Sunset and is pretty cool too.

The Richmond is pretty similar to the Sunset in every way. There's a lot of commercial stuff on Clement which is nice. The area around Green Apple books is pretty decent for shopping and eating.

You could also check out areas like the Lower Haight, Lower Pacific Heights, the Mission around Dolores Park, Duboce Park, Noe Valley, and Glen Park, and driving out to your work in the Sunset would be alright. Parking is definitely easiest in the Richmond and Sunset compared with those areas though.

If you're taking Muni though then I would look at the Inner Sunset and Cole Valley, it takes a while for Muni trains and buses to chug through all the Avenues and it would be good to cut down on your transit distance.

If you want sunnier weather and don't mind maybe paying more or getting a smaller place than in the Sunset,

[skyway31]

I ride from Montgomery to West Portal and back every day to work. It's 15 minutes from when I descend the steps into the tunnel to when I get off at WP station every time. A key factor is you can take any one of three different trains and they all go to WP. If you had to take one specific route, it may be longer. Overall I'm very happy with that subway. And it BLOWS BART away as far as having a clean, modern feel to the trains. I just stepped into the BART portion of the Montgomery station as I type this. I'm amazed at how old-timey it feels and looks. And I'm stuck in a long wait for a train hence I have time to type this lol.

[jade408]

I agree about West Portal/Forest Hill. I went over there for the first time recently and thought, it is so cute over here! Definitely a good place to consider.

[alliance]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I just got home from a road trip through the entire area. I spent a bit of time pretty much all over and made some observations. Please let me know if I am way off base on any of this, but here's what I found:

Santa Rosa - Decent restaurants, a few bars. Really just seems like a regular city, nothing special.
Windsor - spent two nights here, wasn't terribly impressed. But I really didn't spend much time there at all.
Sebastopol - Interesting little town. Some decent food options and regular type businesses. Got a good vibe overall, but maybe that's because of the surrounding areas being so beautiful.
Occidental - small town, ate at a couple restaurants and enjoyed both meals. The surrounding forest-like area is very attractive. Sleepy town, reminds me of where I live now (small town with nothing to do).
Guerneville - I liked this town. Seemed to have some personality for being such a small town. Good coffee shop and decent food. The redwoods north of here were impressive as well.
The surrounding areas - I had no idea how beautiful it really was up there. Forests, hill country, vineyards, redwoods, even the ocean. All within 30 minutes of everywhere it seems. It is a sports-car's dream. The coast is amazing. The natural beauty of the isolated beaches blows away the coast of southern California (which I didn't think possible). I loved the seclusion out there.

My questions...what kind of people will you find between ages 20 and 30 in these areas? Are they educated? I'm in an area right now of really stupid uneducated (yes, there is a difference between the two) people, which gets really old really fast.


SF - lots of observations here. I spent a few days walking the entire city (skipping public transportation, but did drive to the west part to walk that area). The downtown area was a fun environment, but at night the beggars got really old really fast. Lots of harassment, even when ignoring them. One black guy even jumped in front of me waving his arms around trying to startle me or get my attention. Very frustrating and annoying. I never felt afraid, but still not an appealing environment because of that. Lots of times I'd be having a great time only to have it ruined because of the harassment.
Moving onto the people...during the day lots of yuppies in the downtown area. Very little eye contact. In fact, absolutely none. Zero. That really surprised me. People live in their own bubbles when walking around listening to their iPods, I guess. The only time people seemed friendly was in the touristy areas. The sunset area, OTOH, the people seemed much more approachable and friendly.
The women...interesting mix. Apparently the popular style these days is to wear skin tight black spandex-like pants +/- skanky boots. Not that I'm complaining since it made good eye-candy, but just seemed very fake. Reminded me of LA without the plastic surgery. Also something I didn't expect. Lots of arrogance and attitude from the women I interacted with. Snobby and full of entitlement in their attitudes, at least in the downtown surrounding areas. The further west in the city I went, the more normal the women became, though.
Also, it was hard to determine the type of weather to expect since it was absolutely perfect every day and everywhere on the trip. Just beautiful.
During the day, I felt invigorated by the city. At night, though, I really felt isolated when walking around. Seemed like a lot of life everywhere, but I didn't feel comfortable at all. Is that normal?
The food...amazing. Loved it all. Tried a variety of types and was not disappointed with anything.
Walking the city was easy. I'm not in great shape, but had no trouble walking between 5 and 10 miles per day (helped burn off all that great food). I love how walkable the entire area is, even the steep hills. When driving, though, pedestrians are insane. Just walk wherever and whenever they want. How do more of you not get hit??


So...in the end the entire trip was very enjoyable. Every area I went felt inviting and full of life. Left almost more questions than answers.

One point I need to mention is that this is going to be a move for the long haul. Meaning I won't really be able to just move on in a couple years (part of the transient population, as was mentioned earlier). This leaves the long-term side as significant as the short-term. Does that make SF less desirable?

Am I way off base in any of this?
Thanks for your help.

[mayorhaggar]

Moving onto the people...during the day lots of yuppies in the downtown area. Very little eye contact. In fact, absolutely none. Zero. That really surprised me. People live in their own bubbles when walking around listening to their iPods, I guess.


Well what did you expect? It's a big, bustling city. In urban areas everyone is moving around quickly and not paying attention to one another. It's just what cities are like, plus it's a good way to avoid attracting the attention of aggressive homeless people. If you lived in SF for a while you'd develop that sort of shield.

In terms of people not being real enough for you, I find people in the East Bay to be a lot more down to earth, especially around Oakland, plus people are just a lot more middle class, in SF they're either really rich or poor and there's not much in between. People in Oakland actually say hi to you when you're walking to work in the morning and say "bless you" when you sneeze and chat about the weather. In my neighborhood there's kids out in the street playing and people sitting on their porches with their dogs talking with the neighbors. You'd hardly EVER see that in SF, largely because nobody has porches! Oakland is still a pretty urban area though so you still get that sort of urban snootiness from younger people, but older people are pretty outgoing compared to in SF.

And downtown SF is DEAD after about 5pm, it's really just a place for people to work, then they scoot home starting after 5. The Union Square area is pretty busy at night though, so is North Beach. Overall the city is pretty quiet at night compared to the daytime, maybe because everyone is out eating. Go to any restaurant worth going to in SF after 7pm and the place will be packed and very noisy.