Oakland City Councilmembers push for Curfews, more Gang Injunctions (San Diego: felony, houses)

[fizbin]

Originally Posted by NorCal Dude

Curfews are pretty stupid when you don't have enough po-po's to enforce them.

Maybe not totally stupid, but essentially ineffective. Oakland needs cops on the ground, now.

[ssmaster]

Originally Posted by fizbin

Maybe not totally stupid, but essentially ineffective. Oakland needs cops on the ground, now.

i think they would be effective and for the same reason that there is resistance towards them the curfew would not be enforced equally in all areas of the city. i foresee the police focusing on young people standing on street corners in east and west oakland.

the resistance to curfews in oakland is from the very real possibility of it being enforced more in poor and minority parts of oakland but at this point i think i can live with that despite being very liberal

[mayorhaggar]

Haven't the injunctions worked in SF? I think they put some in around the Mission and if you go there it's nowhere as sketchy as it was about 6-7 years ago...there's still sketchy people hanging around but there aren't dozens and dozens of obvious drug dealers hanging around Mission Street all day long, and there's trendy new restaurants around Mission or east of Mission that wouldn't have moved in back in the day...

[Gentoo]

These curfews do work and they are targeted at specific areas. I think that's why they work. Even cities with reduced police forces can be successful with this approach.

The percentage of people we took out is not as important as who we took out,"

It doesn't need to be huge, just targeted.

the "Blue Rag" operation "kicked a hole, a big hole into the Crips" of San Diego. "They are not back to where they were before, and it will take months and months for them to recover and get back into place."

There was also a red rag operation. Despite what this line says, the gangs never returned to their former numbers or strength. While gangs are still present, many areas have seen huge improvements with most of the city now being safe.

I'm sure this can work in Oakland if the city is able to secure the resources and model their operation on successful examples.

Operation Red Rag | 96 Crips, Bloods Arrested During 'Red Rag' Sweep : Gangs: Police round up gang members on drug charges in sequel to "Operation Blue Rag." - Los Angeles Times

[18Montclair]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

These curfews do work and they are targeted at specific areas. I think that's why they work. Even cities with reduced police forces can be successful with this approach.

That's what Im banking on.

I dont believe that kids should have a right to wander the streets at night just because they want to. All too often, they get mixed up in bad things.

[OakAve2OakLand]

Just a thought from out of left field:

How about establishing some sort of "at-risk youth" outreach program with late-night sports leagues or pick-up games (i.e. basketball, inline hockey) on city playgrounds to give these young guys something to do, other than get into trouble? Not all night of course, but maybe until say, midnight or 2 a.m.?

Before automatically shooting down the idea with a "that would be a breeding ground from crime / gang activity" objection...you could just have a regular beat cop make a regular patrol there, or even just assign an additional, full-time cop to this area during the acitvity hours (i.e. 8p to 2a). Shouldn't really cost the city that much more a year...maybe $100k on the high end, for a few of these areas. Even if you do have a criminal element encroaching on such activities, at least you would know exactly where they are, instead of just letting them roam free who knows where doing who knows what throughout the city.

This isn't an original idea...I've heard of programs like this working in other cities / communities...just can't rememeber where off the top of my head.

Just trying to come up with something a little more positive than locking the kids down, which sounds kinda totalitarian to me. And yes, how would you go about enforcing a curfew in certain parts of the city and not others? So the kids in Rockridge will need to be inside by 11p just as the kids in deep East Oakland, right?

Thoughts?

[Gentoo]

How about establishing some sort of "at-risk youth" outreach program with late-night sports leagues or pick-up games (i.e. basketball, inline hockey) on city playgrounds to give these young guys something to do, other than get into trouble? Not all night of course, but maybe until say, midnight or 2 a.m.?

Those already involved in gangs would take little interest in this. If they did, it likely wouldn't be for anything positive.

you could just have a regular beat cop make a regular patrol there, or even just assign an additional, full-time cop to this area during the acitvity hours (i.e. 8p to 2a)

Oakland has a cop shortage so this likely wouldn't be very feasible.

And yes, how would you go about enforcing a curfew in certain parts of the city and not others? So the kids in Rockridge will need to be inside by 11p just as the kids in deep East Oakland, right?

No, the kids in Rockridge would not be policed as much as those in gang areas.

Your ideas aren't bad but they would fit more AFTER the bad elements were eliminated and would be a proactive solution to prevent a repeat of the situation.

[ssmaster]

Originally Posted by OakAve2OakLand

Just a thought from out of left field:

How about establishing some sort of "at-risk youth" outreach program with late-night sports leagues or pick-up games (i.e. basketball, inline hockey) on city playgrounds to give these young guys something to do, other than get into trouble? Not all night of course, but maybe until say, midnight or 2 a.m.?

Before automatically shooting down the idea with a "that would be a breeding ground from crime / gang activity" objection...you could just have a regular beat cop make a regular patrol there, or even just assign an additional, full-time cop to this area during the acitvity hours (i.e. 8p to 2a). Shouldn't really cost the city that much more a year...maybe $100k on the high end, for a few of these areas. Even if you do have a criminal element encroaching on such activities, at least you would know exactly where they are, instead of just letting them roam free who knows where doing who knows what throughout the city.

This isn't an original idea...I've heard of programs like this working in other cities / communities...just can't rememeber where off the top of my head.

Just trying to come up with something a little more positive than locking the kids down, which sounds kinda totalitarian to me. And yes, how would you go about enforcing a curfew in certain parts of the city and not others? So the kids in Rockridge will need to be inside by 11p just as the kids in deep East Oakland, right?

Thoughts?

David Rusk a well respected expert in urban policy is known for saying
"bad neighborhoods defeat good programs"
Amazon.com: David Rusk: Books, Biography, Blog, Audiobooks, Kindle
basically you can have the best program in the world but if you place it in a neighborhood with ex-cons and parolees engaged in crime and violence,poverty,drug dealing ,illicit drug sales,prostitution , gangs and dysfunctional parents the program will most likely fail.

i'm for clearing out the criminal element to secure an environment that will allow the social programs to succeed





i don't see the police arresting kids in east oakland or rockridge for being out after 11:00 pm

i do see the police approaching a crowd of people standing on a streetcorner and saying "you look young. do you have ID? no ?then go home and if i see you here again i will take you in"


or

"you look young. do you have ID? you are over 18 but arent you on parole ? go home or i will violate you"


curfew would be a tool.

[Stephen1110]

The issue is getting it enforced.

There's not going to be just 1-3 teens walking around after "curfew" hours. There could be hundreds attending house parties and event functions across the city.

How do you weave out those that are traving home from those that are traveling out. Should teens carry permission slips from their parents and identification to confirm their ages.

" No officer, I'm not 17, I'm 19"

So is a curfew really pratical.

Also the fact the police are poorly perceived by the community. Oakland police officers have the slowest response times in the nation. These communities feel it's an "us against them" situation in almost all situations, and that of course impacts the ability for the police to be effective.

So, there has to be a change in not just police strategies, but the perception of police altogether.

These communities are protecting themselves, and they truly exemplify the definition of a community. These gangs are not just a group of random individuals. These gangs are nothing but family members and friends of the community. These communities care for their family members and friends. And they will look after each other.

Imagine a police officer, walking up to a gang, and affectionately telling the gang members, " I understand you guys partake in protecting this community from harm, and this lifestyle is about survival, and you may not like or appreciate me, but I love and care for you guys, and it is my job to protect this community for harm,
And that means protecting you from harm. No ones going to come into this neighborhood and cause harm, because if they try to, I'll take them out, becuase that is my job.

Essentially, taking the responsibility of protecting a community out the hands of a gang, and into the hands of the police

[ssmaster]

Originally Posted by Stephen1110

Imagine a police officer, walking up to a gang, and affectionately telling the gang members, " I understand you guys partake in protecting this community from harm, and this lifestyle is about survival, and you may not like or appreciate me, but I love and care for you guys, and it is my job to protect this community for harm,
And that means protecting you from harm. No ones going to come into this neighborhood and cause harm, because if they try to, I'll take them out, becuase that is my job.

i do not think drug dealing and the violence that goes with it protect the community.the violence associated with selling illegal drugs in america makes the community unsafe for everyone. i think more innocent people are harmed like the 3 year old kid who was killed than people are protected.