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Old 10-28-2011, 01:14 PM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,854,602 times
Reputation: 3806

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rimmerama View Post
So you were for the war until you saw a protest? Why is it the protest that changed your mind, and not something else like actually being over there?
Yeah, I enlisted -- age 17 ... home from first tour before I was 19 ... then spent almost four months in the Naval hospital ... had lots of time to consider the points of view being expressed ... lots of time to soak in the raw emotion shown in such growing numbers. Lots of time to watch the newsreels. You have zero firsthand knowledge of the times and experience. Yet you blather your ignorance. Do you think that we veterans were not moved by the protests? Ridiculous. Are you aware of the numbers of veterans who became protestors of that war?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rimmerama View Post
So you believe the media covered the Vietnam war less than the current war in Afghanistan or when we were in Iraq? Sorry, but despite how much more pervasive and instantaneous media today is, I still don't believe that media spends more time on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan than the Vietnam war. There are many reasons posited for this - the fact that we have an all volunteer force now, being one. However, in the end, last week when I watched the news, there was not a single mention of our soldiers in Iraq or Afghanistan, whereas news coverage on T.V of Vietnam was a nightly.
Believe what you want ... that's what ignorant people base their opinions on: belief as opposed to knowledge. Btw, today's all-volunteer force have cameras and phones and computers and internet undreamed of when I was in Vietnam. I couldn't get information home in less than 10 -- 14 days ... and I read news relayed back that was so limited and ill-informed it made us all laugh ... operations I participated in in Laos and Cambodia when there were "no operations" there ...etc. Yeah, tell me about your anecdotal television habits.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rimmerama View Post
Your comment suggests you don't understand the point I was making. What happened to Nixon's rating because of other factors is completely irrelevant to the point I was making about protests being able to cause the change they seek. Directly after Nixon made a speech appealing to the "silent majority" when compared to the radical minority, his approval ratings shot up from 50% to 80%.
I understood you perfectly. And I responded relevantly to disprove your point. Give it up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rimmerama View Post
Ahhhh, so soldiers are protesters... Well, that's a fairly liberal use of the word protester.
Do you think that those "protestors" who threw the tea into Boston Harbor did not go on to fight in the Revolution? Do you think even the people who protested the British but were not subsequently soldiers did not support the war effort? Of course they did. And so, yes, we did win the [Revolutionary] war. And aren't soldiers, by definition, protestors, of a kind? That's why they fight. Except for mercenaries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rimmerama View Post
Hold a sign up during a street rally, wage violent war against the government. Hell, that's practically the same thing, don't know why we bother to distinguish the two...
The protestors started by holding up signs to demonstrate injustices ... if the government refuses to responded to popular outcry, then things escalate. Protests are a wake up and warning ... that's the point.

Next? Keep on shooting yourself in the foot with your lack of knowledge or grasp of subjects and definitions.
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Old 10-28-2011, 01:40 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 2,038,660 times
Reputation: 621
Quote:
Yeah, I enlisted -- age 17 ... home from first tour before I was 19 ... then spent almost four months in the Naval hospital ... had lots of time to consider the points of view being expressed ... lots of time to soak in the raw emotion shown in such growing numbers. Lots of time to watch the newsreels. You have zero firsthand knowledge of the times and experience. Yet you blather your ignorance. Do you think that we veterans were not moved by the protests? Ridiculous. Are you aware of the numbers of veterans who became protestors of that war?
Wow. So nothing except for the protesters affected your view on the subject. That's quite interesting, but I have to wonder if everyone was like you. Well, we've now established that exactly 1 person in the last 5 decades has been swayed by people in the street holding signs.

Quote:
Btw, today's all-volunteer force have cameras and phones and computers and internet undreamed of when I was in Vietnam. I couldn't get information home in less than 10 -- 14 days ... and I read news relayed back that was so limited and ill-informed it made us all laugh ... operations I participated in in Laos and Cambodia when there were "no operations" there ...etc. Yeah, tell me about your anecdotal television habits.
Yeah, the soldiers might, but they don't comprise a high proportion of voters - how much of what they film is promulgated through media that the majority of Americans consume? Not much. My anecdotal television habits? Your anecdotal experiences... Hmmmm, how surprising that you view your personal experiences as being so persuasive, but not the person you disagree with.

Quote:
I understood you perfectly. And I responded relevantly to disprove your point. Give it up.
Clearly you don't. You seem quite emotionally invested in this subject, so perhaps it clouds your ability to rationally understand what I've written here.

Quote:
Do you think that those "protestors" who threw the tea into Boston Harbor did not go on to fight in the Revolution? Do you think even the people who protested the British but were not subsequently soldiers did not support the war effort? Of course they did. And so, yes, we did win the [Revolutionary] war. And aren't soldiers, by definition, protestors, of a kind? That's why they fight. Except for mercenaries.
What they went on to do has no bearing on protests today. Just like with Nixon's approval ratings, you're tossing out red herrings with no real relevance to my posts. I don't know if you just don't comprehend, or if you're being duplicitous in your sophistry. Soldiers = protesters? Sure, that's a pretty large class, unless you're a blithering idiot, I'm sure you'll agree that someone killing people and dropping bombs is far removed from a stoned hippy holding a sign that says "we are the 1%"

Quote:
The protestors started by holding up signs to demonstrate injustices ... if the government refuses to responded to popular outcry, then things escalate. Protests are a wake up and warning ... that's the point.
Yes, sure, they'll escalate, armed insurrection is next, spare me, as the weather gets colder and their armpits get smellier, they'll head back home or to their parent's. Sorry, bucko, we live in a democracy this time around. Tough for you if the majority of voters dare not to think like you do.
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Old 10-28-2011, 01:58 PM
 
Location: SW King County, WA
6,404 posts, read 8,241,347 times
Reputation: 6575
Serious question:

how do I ignore this user?

is there a button or something?
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:16 PM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,854,602 times
Reputation: 3806
You like to 'wiggle' so much I suspect you are either a dancer or you just have to go to the bathroom
Quote:
Originally Posted by rimmerama View Post
Wow. So nothing except for the protesters affected your view on the subject. That's quite interesting, but I have to wonder if everyone was like you. Well, we've now established that exactly 1 person in the last 5 decades has been swayed by people in the street holding signs.
Of course my view on the war I was in was altered by many experiences -- of which the protests around me were a significant one. And your sarcastic glibness aside, there are currently over 130 million people in America polled as supporting the OWS movement ... with another approximately 90 million still undecided. Do you think that these folks were all magically, simultaneously struck by the same thoughts? Or did many of them come to their position through a process of thought in part affected by the voices of others?
Quote:
Originally Posted by rimmerama View Post
Yeah, the soldiers might, but they don't comprise a high proportion of voters - how much of what they film is promulgated through media that the majority of Americans consume? Not much. My anecdotal television habits? Your anecdotal experiences... Hmmmm, how surprising that you view your personal experiences as being so persuasive, but not the person you disagree with.
What the military shares with its families and friends back here at home has a very pernicious effect. Yes, it does go far beyond the soldiers themselves.

And my experiences are just that: experiences ... real life, intensely lived and survived in a very basic, primal way. You are not expressing yourself based on experiences -- other than the experience of mental opinionating. Easy to do. Easy to live in a virtual world of your beliefs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rimmerama View Post
Clearly you don't. You seem quite emotionally invested in this subject, so perhaps it clouds your ability to rationally understand what I've written here.
I understand very clearly that you are not a bit rational -- but belief-based. Any intensity I have about one subject or another is based on having lived intensely and deeply involved, as opposed to shallow living virtually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rimmerama View Post
What they went on to do has no bearing on protests today. Just like with Nixon's approval ratings, you're tossing out red herrings with no real relevance to my posts. I don't know if you just don't comprehend, or if you're being duplicitous in your sophistry.
Here you are wiggling again ... I suspect you are not married? You think it's easy to have the last word every time without basing your arguments meritoriously. You bring things up in a discussion and then call your own issues red herrings and of "no bearing" when they are shown to disprove your points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rimmerama View Post
Yes, sure, they'll escalate, armed insurrection is next, spare me, as the weather gets colder and their armpits get smellier, they'll head back home or to their parent's. Sorry, bucko, we live in a democracy this time around. Tough for you if the majority of voters dare not to think like you do.
I don't expect "armed insurrection" and never said I did ... bucko You're a peach. But, if it ever did get to that, I am sure that you would be nowhere to be seen ... I am in my mid-60's, and though I have multiple disabilities, I am still extremely fit and energetic and motivated. If called on to stand for the honor of all the people in our democracy, and not just a fraternity of rich sociopathic investment moguls, I'll be there.
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:25 PM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,854,602 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by 04kL4nD View Post
Serious question:

how do I ignore this user?

is there a button or something?
Based on other posts of yours, I am assuming you mean "rimmeramamamama" ... in which case I accept the blame for its recurring appearance. Every once in a while I get so amazed by a poster's ignorance and persistent protests in the face of being disproved -- well, it's just hard to stop toying.

My bad, I'll try to quit now.
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:31 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 2,038,660 times
Reputation: 621
Quote:
Of course my view on the war I was in was altered by many experiences -- of which the protests around me were a significant one. And your sarcastic glibness aside, there are currently over 130 million people in America polled as supporting the OWS movement ... with another approximately 90 million still undecided. Do you think that these folks were all magically, simultaneously struck by the same thoughts? Or did many of them come to their position through a process of thought in part affected by the voices of others?
Why would it be simultaneous? I've been of the opinion that there was a dangerous wealth disparity in this nation for years. It didn't take a couple protesters on wall street to reveal this fact to me.

Quote:
You bring things up in a discussion and then call your own issues red herrings and of "no bearing" when they are shown to disprove your points.
I brought up no red herrings. I didn't bring up the Boston Tea Party, and my bringing Nixon's ratings into the conversation was narrowly delineated to the ratings bump he received for criticizing the anti-war protesters. It was you who then went off on the Nixon related tangent.

Quote:
I don't expect "armed insurrection" and never said I did ... bucko You're a peach. But, if it ever did get to that, I am sure that you would be nowhere to be seen ... I am in my mid-60's, and though I have multiple disabilities, I am still extremely fit and energetic and motivated. If called on to stand for the honor of all the people in our democracy, and not just a fraternity of rich sociopathic investment moguls, I'll be there.
You don't expect armed insurrection? Then why did you keep bringing up the Boston Tea Party, as though what happened then had some resemblance to what's happening now?

Quote:
I understand very clearly that you are not a bit rational -- but belief-based. Any intensity I have about one subject or another is based on having lived intensely and deeply involved, as opposed to shallow living virtually.
Yeah, sure, like cool, man. So deep, man, sooooo deep... Now hold on, where's my M.J card?

Quote:
Based on other posts of yours, I am assuming you mean "rimmeramamamama" ... in which case I accept the blame for its recurring appearance. Every once in a while I get so amazed by a poster's ignorance and persistent protests in the face of being disproved -- well, it's just hard to stop toying.

My bad, I'll try to quit now.
You should have quit a long time ago, but clearly agent orange and acid do horrible things to a man's mind.

I understand, you think protests actually change people's minds. And you're right, I'm sure there are a few idiots out there for whom they do. But for most people, they don't. Hell, look at you, first you said the anti war protests changed your views on vietnam, and then it became "one of many" things that influenced you. I suspect your views were already made up, and for people whose views are already made up, I"m sure the protest had special significance for you, but preaching to the choir is not what I'm talking about.

Last edited by rimmerama; 10-28-2011 at 02:40 PM..
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
9,197 posts, read 16,793,105 times
Reputation: 6373
Quote:
Originally Posted by rimmerama View Post
stoned hippy holding a sign that says "we are the 1%"
Haven't seen this one yet.
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:40 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 2,038,660 times
Reputation: 621
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdumbgod View Post
Haven't seen this one yet.
Don't be deceived, the hippies are pretty sneaky these days, tie dye shirts and long hair might not be present - although the stench probably is at this point. The police using fire hoses might actually be welcomed by the protesters...
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Boulder Creek, CA
9,197 posts, read 16,793,105 times
Reputation: 6373
Quote:
Originally Posted by rimmerama View Post
It didn't take a couple protesters on wall street to reveal this fact to me.
This round of protests is successfully piqueing the attention of many who are too young to have witnessed anything like it (the Gulf War protests were a long time ago). For these people, all too many of whom spend all their waking time staring at their iPhones waiting for the next tweet or text message, it is an eye-opening experience to see that so many people are so pissed off they are taking to the streets, marching on local houses of government, and staying put, even in the face of police crackdowns.

Just getting the attention of those who seem to have little or none is a victory in itself.
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Old 10-28-2011, 02:55 PM
 
1,569 posts, read 2,038,660 times
Reputation: 621
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdumbgod View Post
This round of protests is successfully piqueing the attention of many who are too young to have witnessed anything like it (the Gulf War protests were a long time ago). For these people, all too many of whom spend all their waking time staring at their iPhones waiting for the next tweet or text message, it is an eye-opening experience to see that so many people are so pissed off they are taking to the streets, marching on local houses of government, and staying put, even in the face of police crackdowns.

Just getting the attention of those who seem to have little or none is a victory in itself.
Maybe. But I'm sure these protests will ultimately be just as effective as the gulf war protests, or the other gulf war protests...
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