Raise your hand if you are sick of Occupy? (Oakland: lease, salary)

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by jeffredo

So basically, next time I should just point my finger and them and say "You're busted - I know you're just sabotaging Republicans!!". Hmm...

If the shoe fits...

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by Kentmum

Are the Occupy Movement venting their frustration on the right people?

As far as I understand you need to earn in the region of $344,000 to be in the top 1%. Granted, more then 99% of us could ever dream of earning. But that's one in every hundred people. That's a lot of people being blamed here. Has every single one of these people earned this by unfair means? By targeting everyone that earns over $344,000 are you not stifling the desire for success?

Good point. As I said in a previous post....it's not the 1%. It's the square root of 1% of the people in the world who are messing things up. That's around 8500 people, give or take.

But a higher level of consciousness among the rest of us can tip the balance. Practical suggestions from others such as banking with credit unions and patronizing non chain stores are examples.

I might add that if many in the 99% hadn't taken out mortgages that were huge multiples of their incomes, (and used their home eqity as ATMs) much of our current economic woes could have been prevented.

The rest of us need to start understanding that much of what the square root of 1% gets us to do is via encouraging us to act on our own emotional and psychological weaknesses. In essence, they offer the bait in various forms and we take it (and all too often, with great enthusiasm). The rest of us are going to have to get some spines and stop taking the bait if we want to turn things around.

I'll give some more practical examples:

Don't like the greedy healthcare industry? When was the last time you ate a good portion of fruits or veggies? When was the last time you exercised? (So that you won't get one of those expensive preventable diseases like heart disease or diabetes).

Don't like greedy financial companies? What are you willing to give up so that you can live wihout debts? Are you willing to sacrifice the convenience of a big bank in favor of a small bank or credit union?

It's going to take a level of self discipline and sacrifice among the 99.9% to turn things around that so far has not been exhibited (at least not in America).

[bigdumbgod]

Meanwhile, we must continue to Fight For Our Right to Party.

[jade408]

Originally Posted by Gentoo

My boss at work told me he thinks that the fringe protesters (remember it's just them) are Republicans trying to derail the message of the movement. Well, sure seems that way as the anarchists who have been around long before OWS have managed to turn normal people against the movement. Just Google WTO riots for more evidence on these idiots.

What funny is that the far right already hijacked the first of these movements for their own benefit. The Tea party started out almost exactly like Occupy for almost the same reasons. However the Tea party did what OWS hasn't managed to do yet, evolve. Look where that got us. Careful what we ask for.

I think they are actually "professional troublemakers." They just roam around hoping on whatever bandwagon is getting the most attention at the moment.

I would support Occupy if someone, somewhere would tell me what the goal was, and how people can productively accomplish it. Right now Occupy is a lot like Mayor Quan. All talk, no plan.

[nullgeo]

Originally Posted by ambient

Ok, I get your point. True enough. And those are things I would definitely support protesting for.

Now please tell me this: what does the Occupy movement as of right now actually stand for?

I have ruminated overnight. Here is my answer, offered in the link below:
Occupy Wall Street | NYC Protest for World Revolution

But equally important to read and understand, especially given the nature of the response posts here in this thread, is this discussion of the "Black Bloc" anarchists engaged in destroying the Occupy movement. The article is written by the remarkable journalist, Chris Hedges:
Chris Hedges: The Cancer in Occupy - Chris Hedges' Columns - Truthdig

A video of Hedges discussing this topic is here:
Chris Hedges on Occupy, Black Bloc at Left Forum - Truthdig

On the other hand, if readers are only interested in knee-jerking, you can continue to add to the subversion of the most worthy social movement since Vietnam, civil rights, labor, suffrage, etc. Carry on.

[Gentoo]

Originally Posted by jade408

I think they are actually "professional troublemakers." They just roam around hoping on whatever bandwagon is getting the most attention at the moment.

I would support Occupy if someone, somewhere would tell me what the goal was, and how people can productively accomplish it. Right now Occupy is a lot like Mayor Quan. All talk, no plan.

They are professional protesters. Same ones that were at the WTO in Seattle, same ones that jumped onto 880 back in 2010. Many of the Oakland, Berkeley and I believe Seattle police actually know who many of them are by sight. At least in Oakland and Berkeley where there are more protest.

As for your other point, I couldn't agree more. Part of the problem is mayor Quans wishy-washiness.

[nullgeo]

Originally Posted by Kentmum

Any chance you could shed some light on my question posed on page 12 while you are about it?

I read the article you linked. Complex answer, because I think the question posed by the writer is actually highly relevant to the realities of the issues behind Occupy -- but at the same time I think the writer misses the real Occupy point. I also didn't think too much of his analysis and writing from a journalism point of view. It is a blog-level conversation.

However, the fact that he misses the Occupy point is interesting and telling. And he raises some philosophical points that I could ramble on about at great length -- but which would go way off topic pretty quickly.

To your credit, IMO, is your curiosity about whether the Occupy is focused on wealth of any kind, or is FAR more targeted. The wealth earned by contemporary software and engineering development is seen as earned and productive -- as opposed to purely leveraged by the empty "art" of investing OPM (other people's money).

I don't happen to agree it so innocent in its effect on society -- but that is where we would go off into the deep weeds away from topic. Suffice to say, the destructive behaviors of the investment and industrial-military-political triangle communities is the Occupy focus. These types of personalities have always existed and dominated since the dawn of agriculture -- and they always will. But, periodically, they require a good slapping to remind them to take care of their slaves if they want to get their silly work done and empty wealth accumulated. So slap away, I say

[clongirl]

Originally Posted by nullgeo

Really. Ah, life in the Age of Instant Gratification.
Tonight's couple of questions to ponder as we approach the 8-month anniversary of the initial, real, Occupy movement:

A) how long did it take to end the Vietnam war after the protests began -- hint, I did tours from '66 through to end of '67 and the protests were in full swing almost a year before I arrived ... They were still going for six years after I came home ... Get out your calculators if mathamatically challenged.

B) how long was it from the time Al Gore invented the Internet until it became a real populist tool?

Bonus questions for extra credit:
A) how long did the civil rights movement last?
B) how long did the women's suffrage movement last until women were given the right to vote?
C) how long did the labor movement take to win substantial benefits for workers in factories?

When you are done with the above questions, you may write an essay on the concept of patience and submit.

Yes, of course. These things make absolute sense. However I don't really "get" what the message is with Occupy. It has been lost through their violence and disruption of everyday life by working people.

What to they want? How do they intend to achieve anything when it's not even clear to anyone? Squatting in a vacant building in San Francisco means nothing. Camping outside in random places, making messes, and breaking windows, or blocking the Port of Oakland doesn't have anything to do with hedge funds and folks that make $ on the collapse of markets.

If they want to make change, then they need to identify the problem and let the message be known. Close loopholes, prosecute these bankers, monitor how business in conducted in the future.

I recall when the protests began in NYC at the entrances of Goldman Sacks or Bear Sterns. Most people were totally supportive because it made sense. The banks, real estate industry, and hedge fund managers are where the problem lies. These people made $$ off of our country's demise---Not with people like Richard Branson, Bill Gates, or Alan Greenspan..or even some defense lawyer up in the Oakland Hills.

[nullgeo]

Originally Posted by clongirl

Yes, of course. These things make absolute sense. However I don't really "get" what the message is with Occupy. It has been lost through their violence and disruption of everyday life by working people.

What to they want? How do they intend to achieve anything when it's not even clear to anyone? Squatting in a vacant building in San Francisco means nothing. Camping outside in random places, making messes, and breaking windows, or blocking the Port of Oakland doesn't have anything to do with hedge funds and folks that make $ on the collapse of markets.

If they want to make change, then they need to identify the problem and let the message be known. Close loopholes, prosecute these bankers, monitor how business in conducted in the future.

I recall when the protests began in NYC at the entrances of Goldman Sacks or Bear Sterns. Most people were totally supportive because it made sense. The banks, real estate industry, and hedge fund managers are where the problem lies. These people made $$ off of our country's demise---Not with people like Richard Branson, Bill Gates, or Alan Greenspan..or even some defense lawyer up in the Oakland Hills.

Looks like, by the timing of your post here, you were typing while I was providing the links to address your questions. Look above, read / watch what Chris Hedges talks about. You will have your answers. In a nutshell: the destructive protests you / we are witnessing at this time are, simply, not Occupy. And are intended to destroy Occupy. And, I fear, most folks are buying into the conspiracy.

[ambient]

Originally Posted by nullgeo

Looks like, by the timing of your post here, you were typing while I was providing the links to address your questions. Look above, read / watch what Chris Hedges talks about. You will have your answers. In a nutshell: the destructive protests you / we are witnessing at this time are, simply, not Occupy. And are intended to destroy Occupy. And, I fear, most folks are buying into the conspiracy.

I dunno... I seriously doubt there is some sort of an organized conspiracy. I think this is naturally what happens when you have a large group of people with no real focus. In all seriousness, I suspect that the majority of the people involved with the Occupy protests at least initially had generally good intentions whose goal was not violent societal overthrow.

It used to be something like: "we're here to protest unfair banking and investment practices that helped push us into recession."

Now, it seems to have devolved into something like: "We're here to protest EVERYTHING under the entire spectrum of capitalism and the existence of any/all rich people."

When that happens, it naturally opens the door for a lot of extremist kooks who are always around to take things in a much more radical and violent direction. And whatever normal people are/were there will quickly get drowned out.