A hypothetical... (San Francisco, Daly City, Brea: to rent, condo, mortgage)

[dalparadise]

@Ruth--As I'm sure you can relate, creative people are often driven by a challenge--a chance to face obstacles head-on and craft ways to overcome them. It's like what brought me to the Bay Area in the first place. I walked away from a job most people in my field would kill for, simply for the opportunity to play on a bigger stage and test my talents in a more demanding market. I came to SF for LESS money initially, for the chance to prove myself. Then, I blew through that after about 6 months with a raise and a promotion. Tha. Was all validation to a creative person. I've found that this trait is pretty common among us.

It also explains the different arguments and perspectives people have on places like Texas. People who advise making lateral career moves to Texas are just hanging dollar signs on their ideas of happiness. Factor in the other intangibles though, and I think the picture of "why The Bay Area?" becomes more clear. Now, a place like Chicago throws a bit of a different wrinkle in the argument, as it offers Bay Area-like urban amenities and professional opportunities (though without many of the natural ones) at Texas-like prices. It's a point worth pondering, at least to me, to understand and illustrate the real value of being here.

[dalparadise]

Originally Posted by smashystyle

There's no way I'd move in your hypothetical. If I had my needs met with my current salary, what would be the point of a raise? Money is a means to an end, and the things I could purchase with another $50,000 would in no way make up for the dissatisfaction of being in a city and state I didn't like. Maybe if I were offered five or ten times the salary, so that I could work for a few years and then live off my savings wherever I liked, I would take the job in Chicago. But the extra income just doesn't mean much to me once I have my basic needs met and am reasonably financially comfortable. I've made decisions like this in the past -- in my line of work, I could make several times my current salary. But it would require me to move, to work more hours, and do work I enjoy less. And what I could buy with the extra money isn't worth it.

This is very interesting. At the numbers provided in the example, you place the value of living in the Bay Area at roughly $500,000-$750,000 (potentially $750,000-$1,000,000 adjusted for COL) per year MORE THAN living elsewhere. That makes a $3000/mo 1BR apartment sound like a bargain.

[tifoso]

dalparadise,

I'm nearing the end of my working life so I'm not looking for any career moves, lateral or otherwise, But I really like the way you framed the question as it prompted some very interesting discussion...not least about ice cream. Thanks much!

[CirclingLogan]

Originally Posted by andyadhi01

Chicago as a city beats SF in every measurable aspects of culture, history, shopping, food scene, urban environment, economy, population etc. SF is more like a small part of Chicago. As a bigger city Chicago has it's share of problems too. Other than weather and scenery, which is not important for many people, Chicagoland is a great area to live.

I've spent a lot of time in both cities, and disagree strongly.

Chicago has a much less cosmopolitan culture. It's very focused on professional and college sports.

There's plenty of shopping in both, so kind of irrelevant, but SF has more boutiques in neighborhoods outside of the CBD.

SF's urban environment is far more beautiful with the hills, ocean, bridges and bay. It's also much more layered and closely knit. A lot of Chicago neighborhoods seem far apart, and broken up by dull areas.

SF is like a small part of Chicago -- take Chicago's nice neighborhoods, expand them, and make them much more interesting, and you have SF. SF doesn't have the 2/3 of Chicago, which is sprawl of crumbling infrastructure and struggling communities.

[CirclingLogan]

For me, it all comes down to five things:

1) Weather. I hate humidity. I hate mosquitoes. I don't love winter, though I actually hate it less than the previous. I LOVE the mild, Mediterranean climate. Only LA has weather to match.

2) Cosmopolitan culture. SF Bay has a very educated, well-traveled, intellectual and unique culture. It can really only be matched by NYC.

3) Scenery. I could never go back to flat and dull. I can't think of another area with scenery like this.

4) Outdoor recreation. There is everything here within 1-4 hours.

5) Urbanity. Only NYC has a more lively, layered, interesting urban center than SF.

No other region in the US has all these things. Most have 1-2. Some have up to 3, but that's it. I guess if I has to choose another region to settle down in, it would likely be on the west coast: LA, Seattle, Portland. Maybe NYC, but I don't think I could deal with the weather.

[smashystyle]

Originally Posted by CirclingLogan

For me, it all comes down to five things:

1) Weather. I hate humidity. I hate mosquitoes. I don't love winter, though I actually hate it less than the previous. I LOVE the mild, Mediterranean climate. Only LA has weather to match.

2) Cosmopolitan culture. SF Bay has a very educated, well-traveled, intellectual and unique culture. It can really only be matched by NYC.

3) Scenery. I could never go back to flat and dull. I can't think of another area with scenery like this.

4) Outdoor recreation. There is everything here within 1-4 hours.

5) Urbanity. Only NYC has a more lively, layered, interesting urban center than SF.

No other region in the US has all these things. Most have 1-2. Some have up to 3, but that's it. I guess if I has to choose another region to settle down in, it would likely be on the west coast: LA, Seattle, Portland. Maybe NYC, but I don't think I could deal with the weather.

Good list. I like DC a lot -- and think that it competes with SF and some of your other cities for people -- but it only has 2.5 of these items (2, 4 (sort of), and 5). But DC's weather is *terrible*. And it's pretty expensive as is.

[davdaven]

Originally Posted by CirclingLogan

For me, it all comes down to five things:

1) Weather. I hate humidity. I hate mosquitoes. I don't love winter, though I actually hate it less than the previous. I LOVE the mild, Mediterranean climate. Only LA has weather to match.

2) Cosmopolitan culture. SF Bay has a very educated, well-traveled, intellectual and unique culture. It can really only be matched by NYC.

3) Scenery. I could never go back to flat and dull. I can't think of another area with scenery like this.

4) Outdoor recreation. There is everything here within 1-4 hours.

5) Urbanity. Only NYC has a more lively, layered, interesting urban center than SF.

No other region in the US has all these things. Most have 1-2. Some have up to 3, but that's it. I guess if I has to choose another region to settle down in, it would likely be on the west coast: LA, Seattle, Portland. Maybe NYC, but I don't think I could deal with the weather.

This is close to my thought process on living in the Bay Area. I make a comfortable living here, and although home ownership is a stretch for me since I have a single income, I am pretty happy overall because of all the community amenities I have access to.

The only cities I have seriously considered living in are San Diego (where I'm from), LA, Santa Barbara, Portland, Seattle, and Denver. I did not pursue a recent promotional opportunity in Seattle because of the weather prospects, and I also did not pursue recent job opportunities in Santa Monica (LA) and Santa Barbara because COL is almost as high as here and the new jobs did not pay enough to compensate for my loss of a rent-controlled apartment.

Honestly, I would rather live in Australia before considering most of the rest of the U.S. I quite liked Sydney and Brisbane when I visited in 2009, and if it weren't for the fact that they are so far from home, I might have seriously considered moving there.

[andyadhi01]

Originally Posted by dalparadise

The concept of "hypothetical" is lost on some people. My idea was to find a tipping point, where the allure of the Bay Area is trumped by money and similar, if not superior urban amenities. Chicago was chosen because it's really the only place I can think of in the US where that equation starts to balance out.

No surprise that Andy doesn't understand the value of a mental exercise from his miserable perch on the foggy fringe. Carry on.

PS- the scenario was based on a new job with a new employer, not a relo within a person's present company. Working in the Bay Area has distinct advantages in numerous fields in this regard, relative to commanding top salaries for relocations to other parts of the country.

Let's not deal with nonsensical hypotheticals... A layoff and then 6 months of unemployment will cause most people in bay area move just about anywhere and they will be thankful to have income. And trust me the layoffs happen regularly in startups to large tech/biotech companies and thousands move due to this. I have seen people at midsize public companies in VP/SVP levels move due to layoffs and impossibility of finding equivalent employment here.

Moderator cut: personal remarks

[jade408]

I am very very bay area. So i will stay here as kong as it is feasible. But if i could make my bay area wages in Charleston, SC, that would make a very very strong case for moving.

Rainbow Row would be quite nice.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Row

[04kL4nD]

It would take a pretty dramatic pay increase or a tenured position to get me to leave the Bay Area. While my salary as an adjunct isn't great for the Bay Area, it's much, much higher than most other parts of the country, and I have no problems making ends meet where I'm at in Oakland. In other words, if I were to move, not only would I be making a lot less, but my quality of life would be a lot worse too. I've looked into places like Portland, Seattle, Denver, Honolulu, etc and none of them have a similar pay scale, and aside from Honolulu, I don't think any of them have the same great weather and outdoor activities I enjoy (hiking, wine tasting, etc), or at least on the same scale. Why would I move somewhere that isn't as nice for less pay? Doesn't seem to make much sense for me at this point in my career...