Bart fail yet again (Oakland, Livermore: salary, maintenance, to live)

[neutrino78x]

Originally Posted by Chuck5000

Irrelevant. Cut every employee's pay to zero and it would barely change the bottom line here: infrastructure costs billions to build and maintain, and BART hasn't had enough to keep up with the super fast growth of the region.

Lol thats construction cost not operation cost. The operational budget would benefit greatly from a military pay schedule.

100k per year is not huge pay in the Bay Area, I know this is difficult to get your head around.

For an unskilled worker yes it is. In the military the equivilent of a bart driver would be an E-3 at most, which is more like 20k.

Did you know that the military has affirmative action? See what Colin Powell thinks about that.

I am not clear on the relevence.

Did you know the rest of the world, including right of center parties, accepts and functions fine with unions,

I am center left. I support unions at Ford and Tesla. I do not support unions for government servants.

[WithDisp]

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

Lol thats construction cost not operation cost. The operational budget would benefit greatly from a military pay schedule.



For an unskilled worker yes it is. In the military the equivilent of a bart driver would be an E-3 at most, which is more like 20k.



I am not clear on the relevence.



I am center left. I support unions at Ford and Tesla. I do not support unions for government servants.

If BART offers it's workers a 75% paycut, they will all leave. No one would work for those wages.
Then you have no transit system.

Unions and collective bargaining will often pay above market wages for certain jobs, but in exchange there is a hearty supply of lifetime employees. You also have the top players at those union jobs making far less than their private market peers.

[neutrino78x]

Originally Posted by WithDisp

If BART offers it's workers a 75% paycut, they will all leave. No one would work for those wages.

lmao you're kidding, right? Nobody would work for 20k to serve their country lmao...Do you not realize that many in the military grew up in financial privilege? I did. My parents made a lot of money and we had a big house in Silicon Valley. I was upper class (I'm not upper class anymore, of course, but I was in the upper class at that time). I joined to serve my country, not to get rich. That's how it is supposed to be for all government service. lmao at such a notion as yours...one of my shipmates on the USS Florida was the son of a billionaire. Men are fighting and dying in Afghanistan in the US Armed Forces as I write this, making 20k.

Not to mention all the people who work at McDonalds etc for under 20k and don't get the housing stipend that I'm suggesting. The same kind of people are enlisted in the military, with the exception that the military enlisted people are more brave. The hourly wage at McDonalds is quite a bit higher than in the military, considering that (at least when the submarine is at sea) we're at work 24/7.

BART doesn't require any more skill than McDonalds for operating the trains. It requires less, actually, because all the human is doing is standing by to press the Emergency Stop button when needed. There is NO F***ING WAY that job is worth 100k. Those 100k BART operators are telling me they are more important to the government than a Lieutenant fighting on the ground in Afghanistan with the US Army? The LT has a college degree, is doing a job that requires one, and is risking his life -- and taking those of others -- to protect us.

Like JFK, Officer in the United States Navy and later the President of the United States, said, "ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country."

If you want to serve your country and get paid, work for BART. If you want to make a lot of money, work for Union Pacific or Greyhound.

Unions and collective bargaining will often pay above market wages for certain jobs

And we can't afford that. Not for unskilled workers. They can take the military pay chart, plus a monthly stipend for housing (that can only be spent on housing) that goes up with inflation.

[WithDisp]

Originally Posted by neutrino78x

And we can't afford that. Not for unskilled workers. They can take the military pay chart, plus a monthly stipend for housing (that can only be spent on housing) that goes up with inflation.

Your references to the military hold absolutely no weight.

When we have some despot military dictatorship where it's work for the country or die, you'll see such presentations of job offers.

You try to make every post about your very very narrow viewpoint of the world as seen from a basement or submarine.

[neutrino78x]

Originally Posted by WithDisp

Your references to the military hold absolutely no weight.

Ok, you realize BART is part of the government, right? So if someone signs up for BART, they are serving their community, not working for profit like what Google does (although Google does a lot of good public service too). Therefore they should happily take what the government can afford to pay them, just like in the military.

You might not realize that prior to the 60s, government workers did not have unions. Like the military, they were there to serve their country, not make money. Governor Jerry Brown is the loser who allowed unions in California service back in the 70s. I am a moderate liberal but I voted for Meg Whitman, and I think we would be better off with her as CinC of California.

More to the point, you seem to think we're talking about skilled workers. Most BART jobs do not require college degrees. Cashiers and train operators are not skilled workers, yet they are allowed to make 100k through overtime.

[Chuck5000]

Neutrino, all your comments on BART worker pay are wrong. You are confused about margins. Besides, you can't just say "pay like the military!" That's like saying "End war!"

Let's just say someone like you became BART head. And immediately cut BART salaries by a ton, say 30% Do the math. That would not change the game AT ALL re: BART. Operational needs outweigh these tiny margins, let alone capital needs - but capital needs are primary. Public transit organizations are not supposed to run surpluses, if that's what you're thinking. Why are you so stuck on a small number of people being overpaid a little? Do you not like their skin color? Did you not get hired by BART?

Do you not know how many absurdly overpaid and underperforming executives there are in private companies? How many bogus exits people had, gaining huge money after contributing nothing and driving up your housing costs? Stop demonizing BART workers, unless you're going to demonize everyone who unjustly makes a certain level of money. And in that case, you should advocate for tax policies, stop this petty backbiting.

You'll be stuck banging your head against the wall forever because you need to not just recognize things that are wrong, but a) diagnose them, and b) advocate for *realistic* policy solutions, and c) understand what realistic means.

This means learning from other people, forming alliances, joining coalitions - because politics is all about coalitions, and compromise - you don't get all of your cookies.

[sav858]

For all the troubles BART has it seems DC Metro, a similar system to BART and built a few years later, is worse off right now:

"Metro could shut down entire rail lines to do extended maintenance, board chair says"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...cf6_story.html

I hope BART doesn't get to that point but I wouldn't be surprised if it did in the next few years.

[HockeyMac18]

Originally Posted by sav858

For all the troubles BART has it seems DC Metro, a similar system to BART and built a few years later, is worse off right now:

"Metro could shut down entire rail lines to do extended maintenance, board chair says"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local...cf6_story.html

I hope BART doesn't get to that point but I wouldn't be surprised if it did in the next few years.

Very interesting to see these two systems evolve over time and watch each go through different hardships.

I think the DC metro system has been under great stress from higher ridership at a system-wide level for longer, no? Is that to explain why it's being hit so hard with maintenance needs?

What kind of repairs are needed of the DC metro system that requires a complete shut down of the entire system...seems rather extreme. I wonder why BART hasn't gotten to that point yet? Better upkeep? Less harsh weather (i.e. no snow or freeze/thaw cycles)?

[sav858]

Originally Posted by HockeyMac18

Very interesting to see these two systems evolve over time and watch each go through different hardships.

I think the DC metro system has been under great stress from higher ridership at a system-wide level for longer, no? Is that to explain why it's being hit so hard with maintenance needs?

What kind of repairs are needed of the DC metro system that requires a complete shut down of the entire system...seems rather extreme. I wonder why BART hasn't gotten to that point yet? Better upkeep? Less harsh weather (i.e. no snow or freeze/thaw cycles)?

Yes it is interesting to see these two similar systems face issues with aging right now. Not really sure, haven't really read any articles on the reasons why. Considering its size DC Metro had to be designed to handle much higher ridership than BART although they use shorter train sets from what I understand.

I know DC Metro has a newer fleet than BART, I believe they started replacing rail cars with new one's a few years ago. So perhaps they ignored maintenance to do that while BART has done the opposite. Personally I'd rather deal with trains breaking down than worry about my safety and fires inside stations that have killed people.

[neutrino78x]

Well, really we need to end bart and replace it with something better. But it is easier to cut salaries of people who make 100k for an UNSKILLED JOB than it is to somehow magically make bart no longer require maintenance etc.

And make no mistake. A software engineer at Google is performing a job that requires skill. A cashier at BART is not. The same guy who flips burgers at McDonalds for $12/hr could sit in a bart train and wait for an emergency to press the stop button for $100k. I support a union at McDonalds because it is a for-profit operation. I do not support them at BART.

I feel the same way about other government agencies like VTA and CalTrain.