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Old 04-09-2016, 11:58 PM
 
Location: Bordentown
1,705 posts, read 1,593,845 times
Reputation: 2533

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Even if you disagree with what I wrote about, please read this article in the Washington Post that was written by a muslim woman who is asking people to not wear a hijab because of it's meaning.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...th-solidarity/

Here is an excerpt from the article:
As women who grew up in modern Muslim families with theologians, we are trying to reclaim our religion from the prongs of a strict interpretation. Like in our youth, we are witnessing attempts to make this strict ideology the one and only accepted face of Islam. We have seen what the resurgence of political Islam has done to our regions of origin and to our adoptive country.

As Americans, we believe in freedom of religion. But we need to clarify to those in universities, the media and discussion forums that in exploring the “hijab,” they are not exploring Islam, but rather the ideology of political Islam as practiced by the mullahs, or clerics, of Iran and Saudi Arabia, the Taliban in Afghanistan and the Islamic State.
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Old 04-10-2016, 12:01 AM
 
Location: Bordentown
1,705 posts, read 1,593,845 times
Reputation: 2533
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comm...ijab_and_male/

A discussion between muslims and former muslims on reddit:

Quote:
Growing up I was raised to believe men have worse self-control than women and larger sexual appetites, so women should cover their bodies completly and wear a headscarf to help men be chaste. The Islamic dress code is for women to cover their bodies completly besides the face and hands and for men to cover naval to knee. This was explained to me by saying that women are more chaste and less attracted to men, so men should cover less. What do you think about sentiments like that? I'm not a muslim anymore.
I found these comments on Reddit by a male Muslim:
Quote:
Men have animal-like instincts. One of them is to mate. It's a strong overwhelming desire. "Man was created weak in relation to women." Men don't have the same self-control women naturally have. And in the instances where women do flaunt their bodies, it makes it harder for men with self-control to overlook you and not take advantage, but what about those men who are slaves to their temptations?
Quote:
A man who can't control his appetites is a disgrace that has no place in society. There is nothing about the way a woman dresses that gives men license to harass or assault her. Claiming otherwise is spineless.
Quote:
The hijab is used to control women, not men. It blames the actions of men, including sexual assault or rape, on the victim, which is a regressive and barbaric practice. It takes away women's control over their own sexuality, which should be something they can choose to express or contain as they see fit. If a woman wears a hijab because of legal requirements, or social pressures (which are extremely common in Muslim families or communities even, perhaps especially, in countries where they are a minority), her self-expression and sexuality is being controlled and repressed. If she chooses to wear it herself, perhaps it is internal repression, or perhaps it is just a fashion statement, which is fine and all but kind of tacky considering its history.
The idea that women do not or should not have sexual urges is damaging and untrue. The idea that men cannot or should not be able to control their own sexual urges is absolutely ridiculous, and basically writes off rape as the victim's fault, which is ****ed up on so many levels. And frankly, as a man with a basic level of self-control, it's both extremely insulting to me personally and all the halfway decent and civilized men I know, and makes me incredibly concerned over what type of person would believe such a thing about all men, including themselves.
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Old 04-10-2016, 08:23 AM
 
Location: On the water.
21,672 posts, read 16,211,923 times
Reputation: 19765
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkySofiaLila View Post
I didn't say we should shame anyone at all. My point was I don't understand why people defend Islam and its ideologies. Education is empowering and is key to helping people - especially the disadvantaged - get out of these types of situations. So by not educating people, are you saying that people who live in poverty in the inner city should stay living in poverty because it's wrong to change their minds about looking for better living conditions? The women who are forced to cover up by their religion and by their spouses might be longing for something better - a chance at going to school, making friends, and learning about the world around them and having a more freedom. Why couldn't we encourage this? We shouldn't be encouraging people to embrace these ideologies of oppression and suffering by ignoring a problem and looking away.

As far as "further entrench them antagonistically towards you"... so you think that we should sit back and do nothing when attacks like the one in Paris or Belgium happen? What about when violence is committed against women here in our country and the excuse is that it is part of the religion? There are organizations that rescue FLDS women and girls who have been married to the same man. If they were to do that here to muslims, someone would be crying "racism" (even though Islam isn't a race). This is happening right under our noses in the US among immigrant communities - particularly religious ones - and the problem is not addressed. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/14/op...blem.html?_r=0 Why not? Is it because it would "further entrench antagonistic feelings?" Or is it because someone would cry profiling? Why should we be tolerant of behaviors we find completely abhorrent? Is this acceptable? Child bride, 13, dies of internal injuries four days after arranged marriage in Yemen | Daily Mail Online and Yemeni child bride, 8, dies of internal injuries on first night of forced marriage to groom, 40 | Daily Mail Online It is only a matter of time where if we ignore the plight of those people suffering - even something as seemingly innocent as a head scarf to hide a shameful hairline or face - the situation will get worse and worse and we'll be seeing more and more people suffering under oppressive rules. Educating people is a way of helping them open their eyes.
I see. Of course, other than referencing your referencing of the oppressiveness of hijabs, you realize I didn't say a single thing about any of what you have attributed to me?

You are welcome to your rant. Religion IS oppressive. Including Christianity and all its trappings we all live with both consciously and subliminally everyday. If you want to do the Don Quixote dance through life, knock yourself out. While you are at it, maybe you'll have time to turn some of your passion to the oppressiveness of social media and internet forums. Lots of people being harmed there.

By the way, comparing FLDS sects to a world religion of 1.6 billion adherents is a bit of a stretch. There are huge numbers of Muslim women in that 1.6 billion population that don't wear hijabs and who have relationships with men who don't require them to be worn either. You might consider narrowing your crusade down to the sects of Islam that are similarly restrictive.

Oh, and, attacks like Paris and Belgium are the work of a relatively very small number of nut cases who are hell bent on associating Islam with their personal insanity. So no, I don't associate hijabs with nut cases. Hijabs are just another trapping of cultural / religious conditioning. You know, like Christians wearing cute little crosses around their necks to remind everyone of their fantasy / faith.
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Old 04-10-2016, 03:33 PM
 
4,710 posts, read 7,084,361 times
Reputation: 5613
Quoted from SkySofiaLila's post: (it wouldn't let me re-quote)

Growing up I was raised to believe men have worse self-control than women and larger sexual appetites, so women should cover their bodies completly and wear a headscarf to help men be chaste. The Islamic dress code is for women to cover their bodies completly besides the face and hands and for men to cover naval to knee. This was explained to me by saying that women are more chaste and less attracted to men, so men should cover less. What do you think about sentiments like that? I'm not a muslim anymore.
I found these comments on Reddit by a male Muslim:
Quote:
Men have animal-like instincts. One of them is to mate. It's a strong overwhelming desire. "Man was created weak in relation to women." Men don't have the same self-control women naturally have. And in the instances where women do flaunt their bodies, it makes it harder for men with self-control to overlook you and not take advantage, but what about those men who are slaves to their temptations?

My comment on the Above:

So my feeling about this is that it is a belief that was dictated by men who want to hang onto this idea that they couldn't help it if they commit terrible sexual acts. It is an excuse for criminal self indulgence. I don't believe for a minute that men have less control and more desire than women. I think the amount of libido a person has is an individual thing, based mostly on hormone levels. I think it is a shame that women have to be so limited so that men can maintain a socially accepted excuse for unacceptable acts. This is very much like non-Muslim men who are rapists claiming that it was the woman's fault because of what she was wearing. I note here that blaming the victim is an old American tradition, too. I respect the Muslim religion, but I think this particular custom is an expression of a male dominated culture that has little respect for women as people, and looks at them mostly as sexual objects. (There is a lot of that in non-Muslim cultures, so the rest of us should not feel smug about this.)
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Old 04-10-2016, 03:51 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,416 posts, read 2,015,338 times
Reputation: 3999
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
I see. Of course, other than referencing your referencing of the oppressiveness of hijabs, you realize I didn't say a single thing about any of what you have attributed to me?

You are welcome to your rant. Religion IS oppressive. Including Christianity and all its trappings we all live with both consciously and subliminally everyday. If you want to do the Don Quixote dance through life, knock yourself out. While you are at it, maybe you'll have time to turn some of your passion to the oppressiveness of social media and internet forums. Lots of people being harmed there.

By the way, comparing FLDS sects to a world religion of 1.6 billion adherents is a bit of a stretch. There are huge numbers of Muslim women in that 1.6 billion population that don't wear hijabs and who have relationships with men who don't require them to be worn either. You might consider narrowing your crusade down to the sects of Islam that are similarly restrictive.

Oh, and, attacks like Paris and Belgium are the work of a relatively very small number of nut cases who are hell bent on associating Islam with their personal insanity. So no, I don't associate hijabs with nut cases. Hijabs are just another trapping of cultural / religious conditioning. You know, like Christians wearing cute little crosses around their necks to remind everyone of their fantasy / faith.
And the fact that many women don't wear or 'have' to wear hijabs is the point. Recently, in the West, many women from a Muslim background choose to wear a hijab. Decades ago that was far less the case. The fact that many Muslim women now gratuitously opt to wear hijabs is telling - and ironic. It's telling, in that Islam is strident. It's ironic that many of the wearers choose to identify with a belief system that is at its heart, medieval, primitive, regressive and oppressive.
Re Christianity, sure, all the desert religions are dodgy. But that's largely for another thread.
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Old 04-10-2016, 04:19 PM
 
Location: On the water.
21,672 posts, read 16,211,923 times
Reputation: 19765
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
And the fact that many women don't wear or 'have' to wear hijabs is the point. Recently, in the West, many women from a Muslim background choose to wear a hijab. Decades ago that was far less the case. The fact that many Muslim women now gratuitously opt to wear hijabs is telling - and ironic. It's telling, in that Islam is strident. It's ironic that many of the wearers choose to identify with a belief system that is at its heart, medieval, primitive, regressive and oppressive.
Re Christianity, sure, all the desert religions are dodgy. But that's largely for another thread.
People wear Christian crosses, pagan crosses, yamalukes, bow ties and neck ties, Pendleton shirts with beards, tattoos and nose rings, high heels, leather chaps (some with no pants underneath ), some go nekked altogether for weekends but also at parades in town, the rich carry Gucci bags, the ghetto boys wear their hats backwards and their pants barely at all, the bikers have their 'colors', veterans of wars wear their ball caps with the names of their ships and infantry units, hippies have their beads and tie-dye, Sikhs wear their turbans, monks wear saffron robes, kinky players wear rubber suits and masks and carry whips and chains.

Uh, lots of nutty stuff in there. Some just for fun. Some oppressive. Some imposing on others who'd rather not see. Most of it is about proclaiming a belief or allegiance or affinity or brotherhood that, for some reason that escapes me, people want others, who they don't know, have never seen before, will never see again, to acknowledge. It's all Halloween to me 365 days a year.

You and Sofia better get busy straightening them all out.
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Old 04-10-2016, 04:57 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,416 posts, read 2,015,338 times
Reputation: 3999
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
People wear Christian crosses, pagan crosses, yamalukes, bow ties and neck ties, Pendleton shirts with beards, tattoos and nose rings, high heels, leather chaps (some with no pants underneath ), some go nekked altogether for weekends but also at parades in town, the rich carry Gucci bags, the ghetto boys wear their hats backwards and their pants barely at all, the bikers have their 'colors', veterans of wars wear their ball caps with the names of their ships and infantry units, hippies have their beads and tie-dye, Sikhs wear their turbans, monks wear saffron robes, kinky players wear rubber suits and masks and carry whips and chains.

Uh, lots of nutty stuff in there. Some just for fun. Some oppressive. Some imposing on others who'd rather not see. Most of it is about proclaiming a belief or allegiance or affinity or brotherhood that, for some reason that escapes me, people want others, who they don't know, have never seen before, will never see again, to acknowledge. It's all Halloween to me 365 days a year.

You and Sofia better get busy straightening them all out.
I can't speak for Sofia, but my original post was re the apparent increase in number of women wearing hijabs in the City - and to criticize the same. The miscellany of style choices you refer to would be prohibited under Islam - the very belief system hijabs 'celebrate'. As for straightening anyone out, if received tolerance of intolerance is the order of the day, a crack at giving someone pause to question'll do it.
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Old 04-10-2016, 05:49 PM
 
Location: On the water.
21,672 posts, read 16,211,923 times
Reputation: 19765
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
I can't speak for Sofia, but my original post was re the apparent increase in number of women wearing hijabs in the City - and to criticize the same. The miscellany of style choices you refer to would be prohibited under Islam - the very belief system hijabs 'celebrate'. As for straightening anyone out, if received tolerance of intolerance is the order of the day, a crack at giving someone pause to question'll do it.
Uh, yeah, right. Your thread here promotes intolerance. In your judgement, Islam deserves it. Seems pretty clear you really don't know much at all about Islam which exists, for example, side by side, in this country and throughout many others, with the "miscellany of style choices" I listed. Some Christian sects also frown on many of the Halloween miscellany. If you're out to destroy intolerance, start with yourself and work on from there ridding Christianity of its oppressions - which pervade every nook and cranny of our western psyches.
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Old 04-10-2016, 06:15 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
2,416 posts, read 2,015,338 times
Reputation: 3999
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
Uh, yeah, right. Your thread here promotes intolerance. In your judgement, Islam deserves it. Seems pretty clear you really don't know much at all about Islam which exists, for example, side by side, in this country and throughout many others, with the "miscellany of style choices" I listed. Some Christian sects also frown on many of the Halloween miscellany. If you're out to destroy intolerance, start with yourself and work on from there ridding Christianity of its oppressions - which pervade every nook and cranny of our western psyches.
As an anti-theist I have no time for any religion. Again, I started this thread to make an observation about an aspect relating to Islam - or its followers. Want to focus on the fatuities and perniciousness of one of the other superstitions? Start your own thread.
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Old 04-10-2016, 06:42 PM
 
Location: On the water.
21,672 posts, read 16,211,923 times
Reputation: 19765
Quote:
Originally Posted by modernist1 View Post
As an anti-theist I have no time for any religion. Again, I started this thread to make an observation about an aspect relating to Islam - or its followers. Want to focus on the fatuities and perniciousness of one of the other superstitions? Start your own thread.
Um no. This one'll do fine. I've also no time for any religion. But I am well aware that selecting one over another to bash is disingenuous in any campaign to strip away folly. You are cherry-picking. Kinda like attributing neo-naziism to anyone with blond hair and blue eyes.

If you are on an anti-religion campaign, go start a thread in the religion forum. This attempt of yours has nothing to do specifically with California.
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