The San Francisco Trash/Needles/Poop in the Streets Containment Thread (London: felony, maintenance)

[Finper]

Originally Posted by Genghis

I'll say it before and I'll say it again, I don't have the "official statistics" given by the other side on this issue, nor can I look through the data you mention. So I can't judge for myself whose statistics to believe, if any. But when you say something that flies in the face of my own experience, and general common sense, I will choose to not believe your statistics. It is simply not credible to think that homelessness causes substance abuse more than vice-versa, given their own stories that I have seen, and everyone's experiences.

Climate change is something easily observed. You can just plot the average temperature with respect to time. Unless there's a vast conspiracy amongst weather data recorders, global temperatures are going up. With respect to sociological questions on a population that's hard to find, it's not as easy. In addition, in sociology there is a big issue with nonreplicability of scientific results, and even fraud. It's not as simple as plotting weather data. Research can be wrong. Especially when human emotions are involved.

I don't create the environment for failure and abuse. I want the problem of homelessness to be solved. I would never consider harming a homeless person. But I think one needs to be flexible and open-minded, when the methods that have been used to date have not worked. One should be open to the possibility that one's preconceived beliefs are not correct, and not take sociological research results as gospel.

Only in liberal Cali is a plastic straw outlawed but a plastic syringe is passed out by the thousands. I feel like I live behind enemy lines in a insane asylum

[bmw335xi]

Originally Posted by Finper

Only in liberal Cali is a plastic straw outlawed but a plastic syringe is passed out by the thousands. I feel like I live behind enemy lines in a insane asylum

Exactly hahahaha

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by Finper

Only in liberal Cali is a plastic straw outlawed but a plastic syringe is passed out by the thousands. I feel like I live behind enemy lines in a insane asylum

Originally Posted by bmw335xi

Exactly hahahaha

Funny you would consider public health a partisan issue, as if conservatves aren’t concerned with the spread of communicable diseases. Kinda humorous you would create an equivalancy between these two completely unrelated issues: one an environmental disaster ... the other a public health tool.

Plastic straws are banned in lots of cities and countries other than California. A number of huge, leading corporations are discontinuing them as well:

At the beginning of this month, Seattle became the largest U.S. city to ban plastic straws.

They’re not alone.

Starbucks plans to phase out plastic straws by 2020. McDonald’s recently announced it will ban plastic straws at its U.K. and Ireland restaurants. Bon Appétit Management, a food service company with 1,000 U.S. locations, announced last May it will phase out plastic straws. Alaska Airlines will be one of the first airlines to phase out plastic straws and stirrers, in part thanks to an environmentally conscious girl scout.

These groups are responding to public outcry demanding action against a product that, on one hand, seems very simple—but which is harming the world’s oceans, experts warn.
In just the U.S. alone, one estimate suggests 500 million straws are used every single day. One study published earlier this year estimated as many as 8.3 billion plastic straws pollute the world's beaches.

Shared syringes are a major pathway for a number of devastating communicable diseases including HIV/AIDS, hepB and HepC. These diseases once acquired are then spread unknowingly through sexual contacts ... which obviously occure among people who would never use iv drugs as well. Providing free syringes is widely supported by epidemiologists worldwide.

https://www.cdph.ca.gov/Programs/CID...e_syringe.aspx

Knee-jerk ridicule without thoughtful analysis is, well, ridiculous. But certainly common on internet forums.

[Genghis]

The straw issue is silly because they comprise such a minute percentage of the plastic being thrown away. It makes them feel like something is being done when it's really just a drop in the bucket.

There is some logic in passing out syringes. When the junkies on the street get HIV or hepatitis, it becomes everyone's problem because now we have to pay for their treatment, when they get treatment, which they sometimes do. Their health problems become our problem. On the other hand, syringes are cheap. The only downside of course is that now there will be a proliferation of syringes all over the place. But I think it's a pretty small price to pay overall. I don't think it increases the amount of addiction to pass out syringes... if they're at the point where they're injecting they're already pretty far gone.

[bmw335xi]

Imagine if the $100+ million or whatever the city spends on homeless was used to to increase prison capacity for hard drug users and dealers. You could easily have a 3 strikes law. Then the amount of homeless people who truly want to become self-sufficient would be manageable enough to house and train or hire to do simple things like park cleaning, etc.

[Finper]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

Funny you would consider public health a partisan issue, as if conservatves aren’t concerned with the spread of communicable diseases. Kinda humorous you would create an equivalancy between these two completely unrelated issues: one an environmental disaster ... the other a public health tool.

Plastic straws are banned in lots of cities and countries other than California. A number of huge, leading corporations are discontinuing them as well:


Shared syringes are a major pathway for a number of devastating communicable diseases including HIV/AIDS, hepB and HepC. These diseases once acquired are then spread unknowingly through sexual contacts ... which obviously occure among people who would never use iv drugs as well. Providing free syringes is widely supported by epidemiologists worldwide.



Knee-jerk ridicule without thoughtful analysis is, well, ridiculous. But certainly common on internet forums.

Ah yes Seattle the other liberal Hellhole. I don't mind not using straws I was just wondering how Cali people were going to rationalize this syringe thing. One plastic is a environmental disaster the other plastic will save our lives .... got it

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by bmw335xi

Imagine if the $100+ million or whatever the city spends on homeless was used to to increase prison capacity for hard drug users and dealers. You could easily have a 3 strikes law. Then the amount of homeless people who truly want to become self-sufficient would be manageable enough to house and train or hire to do simple things like park cleaning, etc.

Imagine using your internet to educate yourself.

The SF annual budget is now at about $250 million.

Average cost to keep an inmate imprisioned runs about $71,000.

That would cover about 3500 inmates (less than half the homeless population).

Since roughly 30% - 50% of the homeless have addiction problems, depending on which drugs / alcohol you include, you'd spend probably the whole budget locking them up. ... if you could convict them ... catching and convicting is a whole nuther expense. ... But then, you still have sentencing guidelines that would release the convicts back into their old habits in fairly short order ... which habits, btw, they can often indulge in prison (yes, Virginia, there are LOTS of drugs in prison). And which habits, no, the majority will not becoming permanently free from.

But nevermind reality, eh, bmw?

So, anyway, what makes you think “dealers” aren’t already being arrested and charged? You sound as if you believe the law is giving them a pass ... it’s not.

You seriously have no idea what you are talking about on this topic.

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by Finper

Ah yes Seattle the other liberal Hellhole. I don't mind not using straws I was just wondering how Cali people were going to rationalize this syringe thing. One plastic is a environmental disaster the other plastic will save our lives .... got it

Well, yes. To each point. Seattle is liberal. And one plastic is an environmental disaster and the other saves lives. The object is to utilize plastic when beneficial ... and avoid when unnecessary. To any extent that straws have value (mankind managed to exist without them for hundreds of thousands of years until recently), there are always paper straws. Stopping the spread of HIV/AIDS and hepatitis would seem pretty critical, no? Even to conservatives?

But back to the “California and Seattle liberal hellhole” thing real quick ... 32 states, hundreds of cities have free needle programs. You suggesting all those places are “liberal hell holes”? Check the map here:
https://www.amfar.org/uploadedFiles/..._Map_FINAL.pdf

Texas
Missouri
Arizona
Florida
Georgia
Oklahoma
Montana

... “liberal hellholes”? ... or just states where professional epidemiologists recognize a valuable protocol when they see one?

[bmw335xi]

The law is giving them a pass

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by bmw335xi

The law is giving them a pass

Tell us how you know this ...