U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > California > San Francisco - Oakland
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 12-29-2018, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Pac Heights San Francisco
324 posts, read 138,923 times
Reputation: 407

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Logic, math and getting out more would certainly tell any observable human that this issue can be seen all over the city. Think about it...nearly a quarter of the Bay Area's total homeless population is squeezed into just 49 square miles. Sure there are areas of higher concentration over other areas...but to make the claim that it's only in the Mid Market/Tenderloin is disingenuous.

It's not rocket science.
I made no such claim, but even so, there's no parallel in your logic.

The homeless population in San Francisco is between 7,000-8,000. The total population density is, on average, nearly 19,000 per square mile. The area I described (which isn't even the total area of Mid Market/Tenderloin) is about .8 of a square mile.

So, even though I agree with you that, of course there are homeless people elsewhere in the city, your reasoning, which you state should be apparent to any "observable human" (whatever that is) is flawed.

All of these homeless people could easily be squeezed into this single square mile and not even represent the majority in it.

To further follow your assertion, if you spread the homeless population out evenly across the entire city, you'd have about 155 homeless people per square mile, existing in neighborhoods where roughly 19,000 per square mile live. That would indeed be an easy problem to tackle--one which I suspect would be solved in no time at all.

Back to reality--I would argue that the homeless population density of the roughly 1 square mile of Mid Market/Tenderloin in question is higher than 155, wouldn't you agree? The total population density of that area is as much as 28,000 per square mile.

Is it reasonable to suggest that 15% of this notoriously poverty-stricken and drug addicted area is homeless?

That would equal 4200 people concentrated in this square mile area that you, NBC Bay Area and CNN keep visiting and implying is all of San Francisco.

Yes, it still leaves 3500 or so homeless people that live elsewhere in the other 48 square miles. That's about 72 per square mile. Agreed, that's still an astonishing and unacceptable number, but it doesn't really go along with your assertion of multiple Tenderloin-like homeless concentrations city-wide.

Again, I encourage you to name such a concentration of homeless people that you have encountered. Actually applying the math and logic, if such a concentration exists, will actually better explain to you how great, wide swaths of the City can exist where there are very few to zero homeless people.

You're right. It's simple math, not rocket science.

Last edited by DeanoSF; 12-29-2018 at 06:37 PM..
Quick reply to this message

 
Old 12-29-2018, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 °N, 🌄°W
11,249 posts, read 5,129,478 times
Reputation: 7237
Lol at your long winded blabber that has nothing to do with my response to you.

Go ahead and think you live in some sort of Baghdad by the Sea while thinking the homeless situation is not an issue all over SF.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2018, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Orange County... Arizona bound
3,459 posts, read 1,895,633 times
Reputation: 4793

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Exgx...&feature=share

If that links works check it out. It's of a man trying to build housing in Mission and what and who are against him. And I thought it was hard getting through red tape in so cal. Libs are destroying SF
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2018, 09:58 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
32,874 posts, read 14,880,467 times
Reputation: 23682
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanoSF View Post
I think there are echoes of it in Northern Marin County, but only echoes. I know a guy who lives in Fairfax and describes his neighbors as "Hippie Millionaires".

I hear Mendocino and Humboldt Counties still fly a Freak Flag (as Dave Crosby says), but that's not the Bay Area.
Yes, Fairfax, Mill Valley and for the ones who invested really well, Tiburon. They still have Gurdjieff discussion groups and study Sufism. Nevada City (definitely not in the Bay Area) is also one of the last bastions for old SF hippies.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-29-2018, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Pac Heights San Francisco
324 posts, read 138,923 times
Reputation: 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Lol at your long winded blabber that has nothing to do with my response to you.

Go ahead and think you live in some sort of Baghdad by the Sea while thinking the homeless situation is not an issue all over SF.
Hey- you encouraged me to "do the math," implying that you had already done it yourself. Not my fault if you don't like how the numbers work out.

You still are free to submit a Tenderloin-level concentration of homelessness you've encountered in SF...
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-30-2018, 01:30 AM
 
Location: Pacific 🌉 °N, 🌄°W
11,249 posts, read 5,129,478 times
Reputation: 7237
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanoSF View Post
Hey- you encouraged me to "do the math," implying that you had already done it yourself.
This is your perception not mine. You should figure out a way to understand why you frequently fail to follow along in a public forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanoSF View Post
Not my fault if you don't like how the numbers work out.
It's your fault in thinking that you know what I like vs. knowing what I like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeanoSF View Post
You still are free to submit a Tenderloin-level concentration of homelessness you've encountered in SF...
Yes I am free from your games as there is plenty of substantiated data that you can look up yourself.

Do you think SF overrated?
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-30-2018, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Pac Heights San Francisco
324 posts, read 138,923 times
Reputation: 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
This is your perception not mine. You should figure out a way to understand why you frequently fail to follow along in a public forum.
It's your fault in thinking that you know what I like vs. knowing what I like.
Yes I am free from your games as there is plenty of substantiated data that you can look up yourself.

Do you think SF overrated?
This is becoming a familiar pattern for you. Because you are unable to articulate your position, you make some random leap of logic in an attempt to derail the point, such as "The Michelin Guide is not relevant in rating restaurants" or "imagine 7500 homeless people squeezed into 49 square miles! Math and logic tells any observable human that the whole city is overrun!"

When anybody thoughtfully counters these vague and erratic statements, you retreat to "I'm not playing your game!" (of logical debate) Or, "I don't have to answer. Look it up." (I can't credibly support my tangential arguments)

Or, you post a link with a headline that vaguely seems congruent with your point, but with content you haven't read. When it's pointed out that the content actually contradicts your intended point, or your logical fallacies are respectfully illustrated for you, you again go to "I'm not playing your game!" (of reading comprehension) and repeatedly throw out what I can only assume is a weird attempt at an insult: "You want to think you live in Bagdad by the Sea!"

I'm willing to keep trying, though, because it is entertaining to watch your thought process at work. I already answered that I do not believe SF to be overrated. Perhaps you can elaborate on what you found about your experience at a theater in the Mid Market/Tenderloin area that was "overrated" or somehow indicative of San Francisco as a whole?

Last edited by DeanoSF; 12-30-2018 at 01:40 PM..
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-30-2018, 12:40 PM
 
1,514 posts, read 2,723,818 times
Reputation: 1139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matadora View Post
Logic, math and getting out more would certainly tell any observable human that this issue can be seen all over the city. Think about it...nearly a quarter of the Bay Area's total homeless population is squeezed into just 49 square miles. Sure there are areas of higher concentration over other areas...but to make the claim that it's only in the Mid Market/Tenderloin is disingenuous.

It's not rocket science.
SF has neighborhoods with homeowners paying $2-4-8 million+ for homes. Elected officials,city executives,police chiefs make sure those areas do not have the same level of homeless problems as in the tenderloin. These are the people who hold fund raisers and make large campaign donations. It is not logical to believe presidio heights or cow hollow have similar homeless issues as the tenderloin or mid market areas. You don't just call the cops You also call the neighbor who held the big fund raiser for the mayor and things get done
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-30-2018, 01:46 PM
 
Location: SF, CA
1,673 posts, read 803,770 times
Reputation: 2653
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmaster View Post
SF has neighborhoods with homeowners paying $2-4-8 million+ for homes. Elected officials,city executives,police chiefs make sure those areas do not have the same level of homeless problems as in the tenderloin. These are the people who hold fund raisers and make large campaign donations. It is not logical to believe presidio heights or cow hollow have similar homeless issues as the tenderloin or mid market areas. You don't just call the cops You also call the neighbor who held the big fund raiser for the mayor and things get done
Right you are. I live in Pacific Heights (in a studio apt that I moved into before the second tech boom...
thank goodness for rent control!) and there is no sign of homelessness here.
Anyone who looked homeless would be run off by the cops. Now and then the cops roll through the park at night,
presumably to make sure nobody is camping there.
But I've never seen them arrest anyone... there's never anyone there to arrest.
Also, there's not much reason for a homeless person to come up here.
The resources they need are downtown: Meals can be had at Glide. To get out of the weather, go the the main library.

I've lived in SF for many years... it works for me, but I also think it's overrated.
Maybe if I was into opera, wine, high-end restaurants, etc. I'd have a different opinion.
But Seattle or Portland would work just as well for me.
Quick reply to this message
 
Old 12-30-2018, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Pac Heights San Francisco
324 posts, read 138,923 times
Reputation: 407
Quote:
Originally Posted by ssmaster View Post
SF has neighborhoods with homeowners paying $2-4-8 million+ for homes. Elected officials,city executives,police chiefs make sure those areas do not have the same level of homeless problems as in the tenderloin. These are the people who hold fund raisers and make large campaign donations. It is not logical to believe presidio heights or cow hollow have similar homeless issues as the tenderloin or mid market areas. You don't just call the cops You also call the neighbor who held the big fund raiser for the mayor and things get done
Of course! Moreover, The point I'm making about containment means that even the overwhelming majority (meaning 90%+) of middle class residential SF, while not necessarily being immune to the effects of homelessness, is not confronted with them in any real QOL-affecting way outside the Mid Market/Tenderloin area. Admittedly "middle class" in SF is a flashpoint term, as it would count as wealthy virtually anywhere else in the country.

Now, this in no way is intended to diminish the problem. It is indeed large and demands attention! What is so worrisome is, in fact, how contained, yet inexplicably persistent the problem is. By official accounts, as many as 1/2 of the City's homeless live in this single, compact area of Mid Market/Tenderloin. I'd further argue (anecdotally) that the ones here are the most troubled of our homeless residents--the unsheltered, mentally ill and drug-addicted homeless. The fact that the City is unable to effectively address a problem so neatly contained speaks to the complexity of the problem beyond the obvious.

That's why a realistic perspective is important if we ever want to truly address it. SF's city-wide homeless problem cannot be honestly framed in an out-of-towner's view after a visit to Mid Market/Tenderloin, no matter how compelling a headline that image makes.

In fact, that is the problem--because the most egregious problem is relegated to a largely "no-fly-zone" for residents, it's out-of-sight, out-of-mind for the great majority of us. The fact that our neighborhoods are such a dramatic departure from what visitors to the adjacent tourist zone see makes us blind to the issue. That's not right, but it is the case.

As you point out, neighborhoods directly adjacent to this area (even those without the political insulation you mention) such as Nob Hill, Pac Heights, Cow Hollow, Russian Hill, The Marina, are quite free of its QOL problems within their neighborhoods. Further afield residents of places like Presidio Heights, Sunset, Richmond, Lake Street, Laurel Heights, Sea Cliff, etc. may occasionally come in contact with a homeless person, but that is not a QOL moment for those people anymore than coming into contact with a person of a different race or political leaning is.

No, our neighborhoods are not overrun. That's not as juicy a headline, but it should put the problem in a better, more addressable perspective for San Franciscan who wish to deal with the obviously large and pressing problem, rather than sensationalize it for other agendas.
Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


 
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > California > San Francisco - Oakland
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top