A few words regarding cost of living and housing in San Francisco (Santa Rosa: for rent, new home)
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I asked because my impression from reading your posts was that you thought there was a 'reason' why bay area is so overpriced and that you know THERE IS a solution. If you don't know what solution it is, then maybe you shouldn't mention that 'there is a solution'. Then you wouldn't be asked about what that solution is. And, yes, you can say whatever you want, no problem with that, but don't get all defensive if people start asking you about specifics and then start disagreeing with what you have to say.
I just went back and browsed my previous posts and nowhere did I claim I knew the "solutions". YOU are the one that brought that up, if I am wrong please point it out to me. Also in my ORIGINAL POST I LISTED several things on why I think the BA is more expensive than it should be. So why wasn't that enough? I stated what I thought some of the problems were. Was I suppose to continue with a lengthy essay on how to remedy those issues too? Yeah that remark was snobby and I apologize for that, I just didn't think I needed to go into detail on how one could go about changing those things. I figured most people could see how to change things. If high taxes jack up the cost of living then lowering them would lower it; less regulations making it easier to build, ect... just thought that was common sense.
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Why it isn't a solution? Because you don't seem to understand the 'CAUSE' of why bay area is so expensive. One of the main causes of crazy prices is the 'real estate boom' with its lax lending practices and low interest rates.
Wow, again with the "solutions" that YOU brought up. You don't seem to understand that I am talking about more than just housing. Anyone with a 1/2 of brain knows about the causes for the last real estate boom and that was a NATIONAL problem and NOT the point of my original post. I was referring to other factors that don't have to do with the real estate boom that drive up the cost of living. You keep focusing on just housing and that wasn't all what my original post was about. Even in my post you first responded to I repeated that housing wasn't what my original post was about.
I went to SF in mid October. The tourist books all say that Sept/ Oct is the best time to visit because that is when the weather is the warmest and sunniest. The books say that summers are not a good time.
Let your law makers know you don't want homeowner bail-out
For all of you who complaint about the high cost of housing in San Fran. Perhaps you can do something proactive and let your law makers know that you do not want homeowner bailout that does nothing but to keep the housing market artificially inflated. We need to let housing revert to historical means. For 100 years, housing prices have only kept up with inflation and no more. We need to return to that era. Please do something if you will - let housing prices return to normal, no homeowner bail-out.
Why it isn't a solution? Because you don't seem to understand the 'CAUSE' of why bay area is so expensive. One of the main causes of crazy prices is the 'real estate boom' with its lax lending practices and low interest rates.
The cause of why Bay Area real estate is so overpriced is a little more complex then that. The reasons go back to the 70's when a large majority of Bay Area communties including SF, Marin, San Mateo, San Jose, Alameda, and so on passed anti-development laws. For example, in Alameda, you are not allowed to build any multi-family dwellings. Additionally, no new homes are allowed to be built on lots under 2,000 square feet or so. On top of that, what little land that's available to be developed on is continuously embroiled in local politics. Those that live there already want it turned into parks( obviously to preserve their property values) while others want it turned into mixed income housing.
These anti-development laws naturally cause the supply to be artificially manipulated and undercut, which in turns increases the demand and price. The prices have been high for years and well before the boom. But the boom amplified this effect. Remember- the boom was national. Its just that the Bay Area got a double-dose of it.
A more complex reason is from a law passed in the 70's also called Proposition 13, which in effect froze the taxable amount on a home bought. So in other words, dear old Granny might have paid only 30k for her now 1 million dollar house,but she only pays taxes for 30k. This created a whole slew of unintentional problems.People simply stayed in their houses longer, fewer sold, and ultimately added more to the equation of there being less homes available for future buyers.
The worst part is that any talk at all of removing or changing these laws results in hell or high water type debates. Most of these measures heavily benefit those who bought a long time ago, which also explains why the Bay Area has an increasingly aged population. Its a total one-way vacuum system. Those already here are fine, but those who come later are priced out completely.It is a vicious cycle.
It took me a few years to figure these things out. When I did, it made me feel better. The prices aren't high because I'm not working hard enough nor is it because the Bay Area is paved with gold and any better than any other major metro. The reason is from bad legislation and poor community development planning.
Again, I'm not worried about it. A house is really just a huge liability. I have no kids, and even if I did, buying a house wouldn't increase the quality of their lives either. People need to understand this. I've been renting the house I live in for longer than half the people on my street have owned and sold their houses, of which some I know have actually lost money in the transaction.
And this is exactly part of the problem with the mentality of the Bay Area. So many people with high incomes who just say 'lets throw some more money at the problem'. Are you kidding me? Do you know how much money SF already wastes each year with no accountability on homeless programs? Since when has govt solved social problems with more tax money? Mendocino County, where my dad lives, has a huge problem with the homeless now b/c they have the best benefits in the state.
Also when I say the "other half" I'm not talking about your friends in other states buying condos. I'm talking about the working class people struggling to make ends meet. I just had to laugh that you would consider some middle class friends in Minnesota the "other half"! That is another thing I can't stand about the Bay Area, the limousine liberal mentality and I'm not conservative or a republican at all.
maybe part of the problem is I've only lived in the Bay Area and San Diego so I can't compare it to living in other states. I think my mind is warped now by these high prices when I consider San Diego "affordable" compared to here. CA is great overall but I just don't see how it's worth this much money. It should be more expensive than elsewhere b/c it has a lot to offer, but the prices now, especially in the Bay Area, are just over the top and beyond sustainable. It doesn't have to be this expensive and we shouldn't just sit back and take it up the rear is MY POINT.
No, the problem with Americans is we always want tax cuts. It's ridiculous! This city has a big homeless problem, and AS I SAID above - put programs in place and do something about it - make it illegal to panhandle and sleep on the streets - shelter or jail. You cannot clean up the problem if you don't have the funds or man power to do it.
Well, your "other half" comment was obviously open to inturpretation, so please next time say what you mean.
Why can't people who complaint about SF being expensive just move??? I don't understand. The reason it is so expensive is because there are so many people here creating too much demand for everything (mainly housing) - even people who are miserable being here!!!
Exactly. I moved here making $44k per year and it was too tough. I decided I was going to either find a new job making more money or leave. Now I make over $100k - much better. If you cannot afford it - LEAVE - there are many other places in this country that are much cheaper.
I don't live in SF currently. I was born and raised in the Bay Area and have seriously thought about moving back b/c I really miss my family and friends there and want to be there to watch my little siblings grow up. But it's so damn expensive and it wasn't always that way. I don't know if you're a native or not but it's a lot different that it used to be.
And MY POINT was is that is DOESN'T have to be this expensive, I've stated that several times including in my original post and I don't see why that is such a difficult concept to grasp. These high prices are not just b/c of "demand". I'm not miserable but am just saddened by what the Bay Area has turned into and what it is turning into. And people like you just act like this is normal and we should just eat the cost. It's amazing that most of these comments defending the absurd and artificial high cost of living is coming from people that are well off or financially comfortable. It's easy to say this stuff when you don't have to worry about it, it's that type of arrogant mentality in the Bay Area that irks the hell out of me and that is part of the problem why it's so expensive. That are a lot of problems, mainly politicians and public policy, in the Bay Area that cause it to be more expensive than it has to be, and that was MY main POINT this whole time. Get it now?
Your point makes no sense - it *IS* because of the demand. When you have 200 people applying for one studio apartment - you can charge $1,200, $1,300 or more (depending on the area) because several of those people will pay! It's basic economics - supply and demand. Not a hard concept. If the demand for rental housing wasn't so high, rents would be cheap. They exploded during the dotcom high when people would pay $$$$ for housing, then rents went down after the dotcom bust - people leaving, less demand. Simple economics - why can't you grasp that?
Take a land use planning class or something instead of sitting around waiting to be told what to do and go learn about issues related to land use and growth. I seriously don't feel like writing a whole essay right now but I'll throw out some general things that I think are wrong with the Bay Area (but are not necessarily unique to the region) :
-get rid of or revamp Prop 13, which really drives up housing prices by a variety of ways
-less restrictive and overly cumbersome building and development regulations. You'd be surprised how much time and money these things add.
-no or limited rent control
-more density, which does NOT mean more high rises necessarily.
-less taxes and fees such as $4 and $5 bridge tolls. The San Diego-Coronado Bridge stopped charging tolls after the bridge was paid off
Also stop proposing more ridiculous taxes and regulations like the $.10/per gallon of gas tax the MTC wants to enact. I can't believe anyone would even propose that give the record high gas prices.
I'm not an expert or claim to have solutions to all the Bay Area problems. But I see how its different in some aspects compared to elsewhere and how it artificially drives up the cost of living.
I'm ALL for a tax on gas. It is RIDICULOUS how much Americans drive when most major cities have great (or adequate) public transportation systems.
Wow, I make one comment on how its more expensive that it needs to be then people like you start getting all defensive and responding to it therefor forcing me to respond and now I am "cluttering" up this board with "hysteria"? Give a break and take a look in the mirror. Just b/c you don't like my opinions or views does NOT mean I am cluttering up this board, I am just defending myself, which is what YOU are doing as well. I can;t believe how many posts I've even written in here already b/c I was just speaking my mind and didn't think it was such a big deal. I'm sorry I didn't realize people with opposing viewpoints weren't allowed to speak on threads started by you, very stereotypical Bay Area mentality there.
We're not being defensive. You just don't get it - there is HIGH demand to live here. My God, my parents own a 5 bedroom/2 bath house in rural Wisconsin (it's HUGE) and it's last valuation was $148,000. Something like that here would go for millions. Why? Because no on is going to pay more than $148,000 to live in their town, and people will pay millions for a place here. Real Estate prices are absolutely driven hugely by demand. The real estate industry has been hit hard with the recent recession do to the fact that people cannot afford to buy (or keep) homes.
I find comments such as yours hilarious. I live in Minneapolis, and while the weather here is bad, SF doesn't exactly have great weather either. I visited SF on vacation this past fall and was quite unimpressed. SF is incredibly overrated and not some utopia that people make it out to be. I have no idea why people pay the rents that they do to live there. Minneapolis has alot of culture/ diversity / ethnic restaurants / incredible music scene & arts scene etc. and one can buy a house here for $200,000.
The only thing I don't like about Mpls is the weather, but I loathe SF for many things. An overpriced rat race that is living of the myth of what it used to be. Someday I hope to retire and leave Mpls and should have a nice big fat nest egg saved up from living in a city that doesn't have an INSANE cost of living.
However, I have also vacationed in LA and I can see the point of paying the rents there. LA has space to park, the weather is beautiful and it feels MUCH LESS crowded than SF.
San Fran.. you can have it. I wouldn't go back for a vacation even if someone gave me free airfare.
It's funny - you mock my post, but reread yours! You've said some pretty ridiculous things yourself.
I liked living in Minneapolis and I will always have a place in my heart for Minneapolis. But, let me tell you, I was exposed to so many new things when I moved to Seattle, and even moreso when I moved to San Francisco. Minneapolis is a regional midwestern city. It just don't not offer what Seattle or San Francisco (to name a few) do.
LA is not much less crowded than San Francisco. I go there frequently - and it sucks that you have to drive every where. It is the same in Minneapolis. There's just not much of a vibrancy in Minneapolis, in terms of being able to spend hours in a number of neighborhoods and find plenty to do. I lived in Uptown, and it's nothing like many many of the neighborhoods here that are full of life.
You also cannot even compare the food in Minneapolis with San Francisco. San Francisco is always in the top 3 of the great culinary cities of the U.S. - Minneapolis isn't even on the list. Put it this way - two friends were visiting me (from MPLS) in Seattle. We spent two hours walking around Capitol Hill looking for a place to eat. Capitol Hill is full of great, non-chain restuarants. Nothing looked good and one said, "Is there an Applebees around here?" I mean come on. And Capotle? What crap and it's so popular there. Try a burrito in the Mission and you'll never want Capotle again.
Sorry, but I have experienced living in both Minneapolis and San Francisco (you have not) - San Francisco offers the world, Minneapolis?
Last edited by gellio_sf; 04-10-2008 at 10:59 AM..
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Let your law makers know you don't want homeowner bail-out
