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Old 05-17-2020, 10:06 AM
 
Location: Riverside Ca
21,701 posts, read 24,356,464 times
Reputation: 34082

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Montclair View Post
How many saved lives we can get away with? As many as possible.

NYTimes Interactive May 5th

Covid-19 Deaths by Metro Area(how quickly deaths double)
25,848 New York(5 weeks)
3,397 Detroit(4 weeks)
3,030 Boston(2 weeks)
2,550 Chicago(3 weeks)
2,211 Philadelphia(12 days)
1,313 Los Angeles(3 weeks)
1,000 Washington DC(12 days)
782 Miami(4 weeks)
627 Seattle(2 months)
560 Atlanta(3 weeks)
362 Minneapolis-St Paul(10 days)
280 Inland Empire(3 weeks)
257 Dallas-Ft Worth(3 weeks)
219 Houston(2 weeks)
189 San Francisco-Oakland(5 weeks)
At this point this is nothing more than a cash grabbing power tripping circle jerk for our political representatives. Way I see it if you wanna SIP as a individual.....fine. Stay home. But people should be able to keep their shops open and if you don’t wanna come in to shop or use their services or come to work it’s up to the individual.
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Old 05-17-2020, 10:13 AM
 
Location: On the water.
17,218 posts, read 9,651,561 times
Reputation: 14484
Quote:
Originally Posted by landlock View Post
No, they can't. It violates freedom of assembly.
Especially not over fake-o-demic.
Otherwise I agree.
.
Freedom of assembly can be and has been many times overridden for a number of constitutionally valid, temporary, public-safety related reasons - and court upheld.
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Old 05-17-2020, 10:34 AM
 
Location: ABQ
3,775 posts, read 6,259,891 times
Reputation: 4863
Quote:
Originally Posted by landlock View Post
But a lot of people will now become homeless, not be able to eat well and will be forced to do jobs they never wanted to do to begin with (and wouldn't have to, before recession) - that if they even find a job. The outcome will be people forced into much worse forms of slavery than before. Some will never be able to get back on their feet.
Sure, I understand that it sounds like hippy nonsense, but the point is that a lot of people have gotten away from the things that make them who they are. They're working a system that temporarily benefitted them at the expense of their soul, essentially.

And for those that seek revolution, what you indicate will happen (and I agree) are healthy realizations if they produce more revolutionary bedfellows. We've long since been forced to do jobs we never wanted, forced to work them without any real upward mobility, and we've long since done them without any assurances, few social safety nets, and no healthcare. Where we've tricked ourselves is into thinking that we did have that ability to move upward and to stay out of real poverty because we were hard workers. And that's exactly what they'll flip on its end, and potentially have greater amounts of people questioning the legitimacy of that system.

As the federal government and big business bands together to consolidate wealth and power (we're about a decade late from an almost completely evaporated middle class -- this will serve only to further create an underclass of individuals with zero ability to move upward). The most dangerous thing you can do (usually) is to remove the idea that your working classes have something to lose. The further they push the envelope, the closer we will be to them being willing to give it up temporarily in hopes of real change, maybe even revolution. So, I don't discount this as a benefit of economic restructuring like this and it's obviously more important than people having the time for adult coloring, too. But I'm glad some have that option too.
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Old 05-17-2020, 10:39 AM
 
2,732 posts, read 4,266,140 times
Reputation: 3449
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
Anecdotal evidence from states that have opened up suggest otherwise. Just because you wouldn't do something doesn't mean everyone else won't.
And look at how the number of cases are spiking in Texas only a couple weeks into lifting the lockdown. They're likely going to have to close again at some point, due to people acting irresponsibly.
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Old 05-17-2020, 10:43 AM
 
2,732 posts, read 4,266,140 times
Reputation: 3449
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
There's good reason why we distrust scientists. They're only thinking about one aspect of this epidemic. They are NOT thinking about the social costs, which also result in excess deaths.
People fail to understand that the social costs and health aspects are intertwined. I've never once said that there aren't mental health aspects to consider here. But, by opening now and being forced to close again as this epidemic gets much worse benefits nobody. I read one study citing how if we just all behaved like adults in social distancing, wearing masks, etc. through July 4, we could knock down this virus once and for all.

But, when people behave like babies, it certainly doesn't help their cause. I've seen neighbors and others congregating en masse, not wearing masks, not social distancing, etc. Its no wonder why this is much worse than it has to be.

Look, I'm not in favor of ruining this economy nor hurting local businesses. But, I do acknowledge that the government needs to step in when people can't behave in a smarter, more responsible way.
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Old 05-17-2020, 11:21 AM
 
Location: A safe distance from San Francisco
10,291 posts, read 7,092,877 times
Reputation: 11041
If there is anything we have learned from this unnecessarily manufactured catastrophe, it is that there should be NO health authorities. No unelected bureaucrats who are just human beings with opinions, like all the rest of us, with any power whatsoever to wield power over us and restrict freedoms without reasonable individual suspicion and due process.

This is madness that never occurred to me that I'd ever see.
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Old 05-17-2020, 11:34 AM
 
Location: On the water.
17,218 posts, read 9,651,561 times
Reputation: 14484
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
If there is anything we have learned from this unnecessarily manufactured catastrophe, it is that there should be NO health authorities. No unelected bureaucrats who are just human beings with opinions, like all the rest of us, with any power whatsoever to wield power over us and restrict freedoms without reasonable individual suspicion and due process.

This is madness that never occurred to me that I'd ever see.
Lol. Sure thing.. Because the people always elect the smartest and brightest and most competent among us? Lolololol.

Why hire people with science degrees, training, and experience when we can better utilize elected stable geniuses who understand that all we need is to inject the population with cleaning chemicals?


Lolololol again.
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Old 05-17-2020, 11:41 AM
 
Location: ABQ
3,775 posts, read 6,259,891 times
Reputation: 4863
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrownVic95 View Post
If there is anything we have learned from this unnecessarily manufactured catastrophe, it is that there should be NO health authorities. No unelected bureaucrats who are just human beings with opinions, like all the rest of us, with any power whatsoever to wield power over us and restrict freedoms without reasonable individual suspicion and due process.

This is madness that never occurred to me that I'd ever see.
Did we learn that? lol

See how great this time is? This poster is getting absolutely blitzed at 10:30 in the morning. Oh, I guess it is Sunday but still, who needs to know what day it is anymore? =P
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Old 05-17-2020, 01:34 PM
 
460 posts, read 96,656 times
Reputation: 362
Quote:
Originally Posted by llowllevellowll View Post
Sure, I understand that it sounds like hippy nonsense, but the point is that a lot of people have gotten away from the things that make them who they are. They're working a system that temporarily benefitted them at the expense of their soul, essentially.

And for those that seek revolution, what you indicate will happen (and I agree) are healthy realizations if they produce more revolutionary bedfellows. We've long since been forced to do jobs we never wanted, forced to work them without any real upward mobility, and we've long since done them without any assurances, few social safety nets, and no healthcare. Where we've tricked ourselves is into thinking that we did have that ability to move upward and to stay out of real poverty because we were hard workers. And that's exactly what they'll flip on its end, and potentially have greater amounts of people questioning the legitimacy of that system.

As the federal government and big business bands together to consolidate wealth and power (we're about a decade late from an almost completely evaporated middle class -- this will serve only to further create an underclass of individuals with zero ability to move upward). The most dangerous thing you can do (usually) is to remove the idea that your working classes have something to lose. The further they push the envelope, the closer we will be to them being willing to give it up temporarily in hopes of real change, maybe even revolution. So, I don't discount this as a benefit of economic restructuring like this and it's obviously more important than people having the time for adult coloring, too. But I'm glad some have that option too.
I see what you mean...on a long term, yes, this'd be ideally true.
These whole-society disruptions without good outcome can life human lifetime, though, at least can eat one's best years.
I don't have a lot of hope, as you can see what's been going on in South America so far, can be the new "stable" reality here - plus, on top of impoverishment, total digital control and surveillance system, with military-medical-pharma complex becoming openly one with the government and democracies eliminated. This was a soft coup/power takeover that they just conducted, "live exercise" of control over people under the threat of bio-terror... more to come, clearly. As one can see, humans can easily abandon all notions of freedoms, and next, they can gradually abandon notions of comforts....realistically, humankind can live in complete slavery without rebellion, literally being dependent on borrowing money every day just to pay for transportation to their work site with horrible conditions, and not rebel.

Last edited by landlock; 05-17-2020 at 01:49 PM..
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Old 05-17-2020, 02:01 PM
 
Location: ABQ
3,775 posts, read 6,259,891 times
Reputation: 4863
Quote:
Originally Posted by landlock View Post
I see what you mean...on a long term, yes, this'd be ideally true.
These whole-society disruptions without good outcome can life human lifetime, though, at least can eat one's best years.
I don't have a lot of hope, as you can see what's been going on in South America so far, can be the new "stable" reality here - plus, on top of impoverishment, total digital control and surveillance system, with military-medical-pharma complex becoming openly one with the government and democracies eliminated. This was a soft coup/power takeover that they just conducted, "live exercise" of control over people under the threat of bio-terror... more to come, clearly. As one can see, humans can easily abandon all notions of freedoms, and next, they can gradually abandon notions of comforts....realistically, humankind can live in complete slavery without rebellion, literally being dependent on borrowing money every day just to pay for transportation to their work site with horrible conditions, and not rebel.
I wish I could disagree. Your South America comparison is particularly apt (i.e. Brazil). How many watch lists do you think we're on now after these posts?
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