Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > California > San Francisco - Oakland
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-03-2024, 11:31 AM
 
Location: East of Seattle since 1992, 615' Elevation, Zone 8b - originally from SF Bay Area
44,861 posts, read 81,878,104 times
Reputation: 58302

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by ccm123 View Post
BART has no competition, is a government and union run monopoly. No incentives at all to improve. The worst period from what I’ve seen was right after the pandemic.
When BART first started, my friend and neighbor in Oakland was a station agent. I was amazed at how much he made and the great benefits for what he did, thanks to that strong union. That was in the 1970s, I see that today the pay range is $77,630.18 $91,329.68 which has definitely not kept up with inflation. The job I had back then when he made more than me is paying $132,000-$156,000 today, still not enough to buy a house in the Bay Area.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-03-2024, 11:55 AM
 
Location: East Bay, San Francisco Bay Area
23,747 posts, read 24,316,459 times
Reputation: 24174
Good to know. I’m personally ambivalent about unions. I see the plus side: helping in some cases with worker safety, ensuring a safer environment for workers, better benefits/wages/salaries etc. However, I often see the other side too: hard to terminate unproductive employees, etc.

My late father was union at one point, while my mother was also union. My father liked union representation, while my mother despised them. These conflicting views voiced in our household have left me ambivalent.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlock140 View Post
When BART first started, my friend and neighbor in Oakland was a station agent. I was amazed at how much he made and the great benefits for what he did, thanks to that strong union. That was in the 1970s, I see that today the pay range is $77,630.18 $91,329.68 which has definitely not kept up with inflation. The job I had back then when he made more than me is paying $132,000-$156,000 today, still not enough to buy a house in the Bay Area.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2024, 12:04 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,356 posts, read 108,635,951 times
Reputation: 116446
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hemlock140 View Post
When BART first started, my friend and neighbor in Oakland was a station agent. I was amazed at how much he made and the great benefits for what he did, thanks to that strong union. That was in the 1970s, I see that today the pay range is $77,630.18 $91,329.68 which has definitely not kept up with inflation. The job I had back then when he made more than me is paying $132,000-$156,000 today, still not enough to buy a house in the Bay Area.
Just adding a piece of BART history as background to those great union-achieved salaries; BART was designed to be a driverless system. The transit unions from around the Bay carried out a region-wide strike on the first day of service, to force BART to hire drivers. Heaven knows where the budget for all that (and their retirement plans) came from. Unions do have their good and bad sides; I agree with cmm123.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2024, 12:20 PM
 
30,921 posts, read 37,114,372 times
Reputation: 34610
Quote:
Originally Posted by roadwarrior101 View Post
To be fair, other subway systems in the US are not great either. If you go to the East Coast, you'll find that the train systems are more extensive, but also tend to be dirty, run down and in some cases, unsafe. I did find the Washington Metro to be better though.
Yes, I've heard good things about the Washington Metro but have never used it. You are certainly correct that it's the same issue with other train systems on the East Coast. I use Philadelphia's SEPTA system. Of course, in my opinion, much of the same philosophy prevails in Philly as the Bay Area (other than homelessness is less prevalent and less enabled. I'm sure the worse weather is a contributing factor, but not the whole story).

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadwarrior101 View Post
However, if you've ever traveled overseas to Europe or Asia, you'll know that the systems here cannot compare. It would take a complete overhaul of public mindset, taxpayer funding, pride in cleanliness and commitment to taking public transit to make this in any way comparable.
Yep, I have and you're right, they don't. Unfortunately, in the U.S., government run anything is almost always badly done. I know the idealists hate that, but it is the reality. They think the answer is just to throw more money at things. But in Europe they seem to get a lot more for their public spending than we do in the U.S. If we were Europe, they would take the money we spend on Medicare/Medicaid and we'd have decent 100% universal health care coverage without having to spend a dime more. It's a similar story with public schools.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2024, 12:29 PM
 
4,365 posts, read 6,332,913 times
Reputation: 6238
Quote:
Originally Posted by mysticaltyger View Post
Yes, I've heard good things about the Washington Metro but have never used it. You are certainly correct that it's the same issue with other train systems on the East Coast. I use Philadelphia's SEPTA system. Of course, in my opinion, much of the same philosophy prevails in Philly as the Bay Area (other than homelessness is less prevalent and less enabled. I'm sure the worse weather is a contributing factor, but not the whole story).



Yep, I have and you're right, they don't. Unfortunately, in the U.S., government run anything is almost always badly done. I know the idealists hate that, but it is the reality. They think the answer is just to throw more money at things. But in Europe they seem to get a lot more for their public spending than we do in the U.S. If we were Europe, they would take the money we spend on Medicare/Medicaid and we'd have decent 100% universal health care coverage without having to spend a dime more. It's a similar story with public schools.
Yep, I used SEPTA a couple months ago and found it pretty run down as well. You can add the NYC Subway, Boston T and Chicago El to that too. The DC metro was like a bigger, cleaner BART.

I'm not sure if we'd be able to just reallocate funds to cover all of these services. Europeans (on average) have a lot more of their income go to taxes. Maybe not when you just look at the table, but you have to remember the effective tax rates in the US are a lot lower. On top of this, you have the VAT.

On one hand, you have much higher take home pay. On the other, you have to pay a lot more in healthcare (not covered through taxes, excessive spending/wastes on an inefficient system), you pay more for cars because of course you need to drive everywhere, etc.

I lived overseas in Asia for a couple years and got very spoiled by the public transportation.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2024, 12:41 PM
 
1,988 posts, read 894,971 times
Reputation: 5714
The last time I rode BART was 2015, roundtrip from Fremont in the east bay to SF Financial District, SIL worked in SF at the time. I was overwhelmed by the smell of human pee & poop & general BO, the acting-out crazy people & open drug use. I still remembered BART from it's inception, wasn't prepared for the level of decline. SIL is 6'2" & can mean-mug, but his daily commute wore him down. So, I can't imagine it now. Fortunately, family left the state.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2024, 12:46 PM
 
Location: East Bay, San Francisco Bay Area
23,747 posts, read 24,316,459 times
Reputation: 24174
Having traveled to Asia, Europe and all over the US, the systems (especially in Europe and Asia) seem to be run better. (Obviously, just a brief observation as I was there for limited periods of time.)

Notably, the Tokyo Metro and Japan Rail (aka, “bullet train”) were amazing. Very safe, clean, orderly and efficient.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2024, 12:47 PM
 
Location: State of Transition
102,356 posts, read 108,635,951 times
Reputation: 116446
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalWorth View Post
The last time I rode BART was 2015, roundtrip from Fremont in the east bay to SF Financial District, SIL worked in SF at the time. I was overwhelmed by the smell of human pee & poop & general BO, the acting-out crazy people & open drug use. I still remembered BART from it's inception, wasn't prepared for the level of decline. SIL is 6'2" & can mean-mug, but his daily commute wore him down. So, I can't imagine it now. Fortunately, family left the state.
This is why I use the Montgomery Stn, which is on the edge of the FiDi, so close enough to walk to a FiDi destination.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2024, 02:13 PM
 
4,365 posts, read 6,332,913 times
Reputation: 6238
Quote:
Originally Posted by ccm123 View Post

Notably, the Tokyo Metro and Japan Rail (aka, “bullet train”) were amazing. Very safe, clean, orderly and efficient.
Agreed about Tokyo. I also tried the Metro Systems in Osaka, Seoul, Shanghai, Hong Kong, Taipei and Singapore. They were all great in terms of their cleanliness, convenience (stations connecting everywhere virtually within walking distance), frequency and cost.

I know we can't dream of having the population density at a scale that would support this (outside of NYC), but it is really incredible being in an environment where you are not car dependent.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2024, 03:01 PM
 
3,422 posts, read 1,811,444 times
Reputation: 6468
You can thank Nancy Pelosi.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2022 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > California > San Francisco - Oakland
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top