San Fran or L.A?

[SJbust]

Originally Posted by NY2NO2LA2SF

Being a New Yorker thats from New Orleans, but family is from Chicago, then moved to SF from L.A., I can say that San Francisco is the true definition of "urban". It has all the feel of the big city without some of the big city hassles. Yes it costs more than L.A., but the money you spend on gas in L.A. will eat those savings up in just a few fill ups. L.A. has more of a down home feeling to me though. Maybe thats because I am African American, and there just arent that many of us here in the City.
If I could change one thing, I would ask for just 60 more African Americans. Just regular Black people. No disrespect, but most of the African Americans in the City are either Hyphy, Gay, or "extremely weird". Thats the one thing I miss about L.A.. Plenty of regular Black people. I love the diversity enough to sacrifice that. I just wish that more regular Black people could experience the wonders of living in the best city on the planet!

As an intelligent, hard working, goal-oriented, and sincere black male that is a newcomer to the area I'm sorry to hear that I'm not "regular" because I'm gay.

[MisterMark]

Originally Posted by SJbust

As an intelligent, hard working, goal-oriented, and sincere black male that is a newcomer to the area I'm sorry to hear that I'm not "regular" because I'm gay.

SJbust, it's good for you to speak up when you see stupid comments like that, but at the same time, the truth is that most Americans are still homophobic. Maybe most Americans say they're against outright discrimination, but if they see a group of gay guys walking together down the street, they'll still stare and make dumb comments. They don't consider gays to be "regular people". It sucks, but it's just reality.

Having "zero leadership" on this issue from the likes of G.W. Bush certainly hasn't helped matters. I'm hoping this changes in November.

[City Boy]

Most of us Blacks are in the east bay, Oakland, Richmond, San Leandro , Hayward etc. SF is just too expensive.

[stickybit]

Originally Posted by sav858

You seriously cannot see how your condescending attitude is insulting??? What the hell makes you think your OPINION and ASSUMPTIONS are fact or reality?

You qouted my sentences about being insulted by Aimee11 calling me names, and my citation of my OP in which I made a claim about Aimee11's mindset, which anyone is free to disagree with. How is that condescending? And what opinion and assumptions? I made none in the paragraph you quoted. Also, how could I possibly think any of my opinions are "fact or reality"? Nobody can--by definition, they aren't.

Originally Posted by sav858

Just reading your BS and how you come off and what you believe, that is how I perceived you having way to high of an opinion of yourself.

I'll try not to be insulting, here, and write that your interpretation is a common problem that occurs in forums, I guess. The fact is, I have tried, in all of my posts, to be nothing other than factual. If you re-read my posts, you'll see that I tend to use deliberate language and try to be accurate as best I can. I do this precisely because that is a good way to eliminate misinterpretations, according to my training. The idea that I "come off" in any way is the problem with writing things of a factual or debating manner, especially in forums and email. My last boss was a fan of reminding people to be careful in writing, because neither tone nor tenor can be conveyed in emails. This isn't always true, I think--a lot of writing, especially fiction, is indeed designed to inspire an intended interpretation--but it carries weight here, I think.

Originally Posted by sav858

No, you inferred that, just b/c something can go over one's head doesn't mean they are stupid at all.

I didn't infer anything. My statement, which you quoted, says Aimee11 "suggested the possibility that I am so stupid...". As I indicate, my writing in reaction to that idea handles it just as a possibility, not an assumption of fact.

Originally Posted by sav858

And who the hell made you an expert on logic or reasoning? Are you starting to see why I think you have way too high of an opinion of yourself yet??

Well, I have a degree in philosophy (analytic philosophy at my alma mater), including a decent amount of training in logic. Also, I never wrote that I'm an "expert". My statement, which you quote, is that "...it seems that [Aimee11] doesn't have a good grasp of logic." Are you going to deny that people don't have different levels of aptitude and ability in logic, just like writing or skiing or driving? Are you going to deny now that universities have classes in logic exist, too?

So, it is your perception that has colored your interpretation of my writing as elitist. And as I wrote in my post, I don't have a way too high opinion of myself. And I say again, why is it that anytime somebody thinks they can help them with logic and reasoning that we are painted as elitist? If you found an error in my reasoning and wanted to help me with my logic, I wouldn't insult you for it! I would say thanks, probably. And I say again, do you think I'd attack you as a elitist if you wanted to help me with my welding skills, or my basketball skills?

Originally Posted by sav858

wow, I really cannot begin to describe how BS this is. What the f*ck makes you think you are some authority on "good logic" or "intelligence"?? And who has it been "recognized" by? people like you? It's not anti-intellectualism but in this case anti-PSEUDO intellectualism, which is a big problem in SF.

As I wrote above, I have specific training in logic and reasoning. As for intelligence, I imagine somebody who has "authority" on it would be a psychologist, because authority on a subject is about expertise with its topical content. I'm not a psychologist, so I don't have authority on it. But I do have it. And I say again, it's just an attribute. And it does enable me to do things. But I've not written anything anywhere here that is elitist. As you say below, you "call em like you see em." So, what, you can, but I can't just because I seem to have something intelligent to say? Are you now going to deny that intelligence is real, that intelligent people aren't really intelligent and don't have ability with ideas that some others don't?

Oh, and you doubt that anti-intellectualism has been recognized by people, and is just something I made up? Go to Google, and type in "america anti-intellectual" in the search box. You'll see (if you have scripting turned on) that Google even has "america anti-intellectualism" as a pre-filled drop-down option by which to search. Look at some of the results...."Anti-Intellectualism in American Life" by Richard Hofstadter in 1966, the article "The Renaissance of Anti-Intellectualism" By Todd Gitlin in 2000, and the article about anti-intellectualism on Wikipedia. You might want to read that last one.

I guess jtorres shares your ignorance of this issue, too:

Originally Posted by jtorres

Anti-intellectualsim, wtf? That can only be a term dreamed up by SFers.

Nope, sorry jtorres.

Originally Posted by sav858

I seriously just don't get what makes people like you think they are so right and intellectually superior to people that don't see it your way. You have absolutely no authority or anything to blatantly claim our way of thinking is erroneous.

I never said I think I'm right and intellectually superior to people that don't see things my way. I originally simply stated an opinion about Aimee11's original post. Again, if you don't agree, fine. I only believe I'm right in my subsequent writings in my citation of the process of interaction that happened between me and other posters, such as when I noted that I didn't insult anybody unless and until they insulted me! And if I made an error and somebody found it, that's fine. And I never claimed your way of thinking is erroneous. I never wrote anything about your way of thinking. I don't even know what "way of thinking" you're talking about.

Originally Posted by sav858

I know I get a little harsh with my rhetoric but I don't BS around, I call em like I see em. You are just so full of sh*t but are too arrogant to see it.

It seems this is the issue...how you "see em". You can't justifiably say that I'm "full of sh*t" because I haven't made any unfounded claim here. I simply defended myself against attacks from others by citing breaks in chains of causality they cite, faulty reasoning, misrepresentation of facts, jumps to conclusions, and misinterpretations. You simply have no right to make me out to be arrogant because all I've done here is do my best to defend myself using what I see factually and the arguments that you all use. I'm a literalist, and that's why I try to use the precise language that I use, to the extent I use it. And as Aimee11 writes (and "tells" me), nobody like to be insulted. But it is you all that are insulting me repeatedly, as you do here. Mostly, you just attribute things to me that I never claimed or haven't been discussed. Re-read and see how what I write and what you write are related or not.

Originally Posted by Aimee11

i just am not open to being insulted Sticky bit.....and i don't think anyone likes it on any level, obviously you don't, which is completely normal, so don't do it to others on here. It's as simple as that.

Well, if you're not open to being insulted, and you don't think anyone likes it, then you shouldn't do it yourself. As I showed in my various rebuttals, I never wrote anything derogatory until I was insulted. You started it.

So why do I go to the trouble of writing all of this? Because I care about how people interpret things. Because faulty reasoning is a common problem. Because the "leaders" and economic elite of this country love to take advantage of it to manipulate people. And because if I can defend myself, and help people in the process by pointing out errors they make (as they are free to point out to me, too), then maybe I'll help a tiny amount to improve things.

Anyway...

Originally Posted by tkindred

Like I said, I well traveled and I have not found a place with so many people full of themselves. I am not quite sure where it originates from. Do they teach them that sort of thing in their schools?

The people from SF that I've hung out with over the years have mostly been not arrogant (I think). But I've hung out with a pretty chill group of people. If San Franciscans are arrogant, perhaps it's because they feel like they've "made it" among people in California (or the U.S.) just because they live in SF, an expensive metropolis, where there are indeed a lot of talented people.

[Bluesmama]

Boy! This is one thread that's really ramified! I had to read the originator's post to make sure I clicked into the right one.

I love both cities, although I wouldn't want to live in either one (for different reasons). Both are beautiful, both are exciting, both have a lot to offer, and the cost of living in both are about the same ~ into the stratosphere. (In my 1st recent trip to New York I did NOT find things there any more expensive than San Francisco except for admission costs to attractions. That was the only exception.)

What New York has over San Francisco is this incredible energy. I don't know if it's from the fast pace, the dense population, the attitudes ~ maybe it's ALL of it. But to me it felt like almost a vortex. I found myself moving faster, even making simple decisions faster (like fast foods lines). Also, their traffic makes San Francisco's look mild! I absolutely couldn't believe it!

The city scapes share no similarities. New York is flat, easy for those with health challenges. Architecture is very different. The Upper Eastside section did remind me a little of SF ~ hillier, some of the building designs.

San Francisco has its own unique history, it's hilly beauty, outstanding architecture. And whether New Yorkers want to believe it or not, SF is very diverse as well. (And I prefer SF's Chinatown.) And, while I don't consider it "laid back" by any means, it doesn't send my senses into over-drive like I experienced in New York.

Both are terrific cities that should never ~ ever! ~ be compared to one another.

[sav858]

stickybit:
Are you seriously bringing up some crap from 4 months ago? I don't even remember exactly what all that BS was about and could care less now. Get over it already and move on. If you really don't think you're arrogant with a title "Apparently a Couple People still can't read" and calling me "ignorant" then I doubt you will ever see it. I guess some people are just so full of it and too arrogant that they will never see or recognize their flaws that are apparent to everyone else and you'll just keep telling yourself the same BS over and over to convince yourself of whatever you need to so you can get through the day. I can probably argue about this forever with your since you seem to run in the same circles repeating the same delusional crap over and over. Anyways, good luck with all of that

[Stacy From Cali]

Having gone back and re-read a bunch of this topic I've come to the (obvious) conclusion that one of the main issues here is a difference in culture. I have lived in both LA and San Francisco and (I'm generalizing here) the cities value very different things regarding personal presentation. San Franciscans highly value articulate "intellectual" speech while in Los Angeles I found that many people tried to hide their education in a social setting so not to be deemed pretentious. This was especially surprising to me at the college I attended in LA (USC)...where valley-girl speech and super-blondness ruled the day, but where apperance and lack of articulation obviously had nothing to do with lack of intellegence. These same highly intellegent women would not be taken seriously in San Francisco because of the way they presented themselves. Just as a San Franciscan may be consitered "full of themselves" or "arrogant" because of the way they spoke, or their insistance in bringing their education to a social setting.

Its just a difference in culture folks. An interesting one at that.

[Bluesmama]

I apologize. I was searching for a thread that I noticed somewhere regarding "SF vs NY", and for some reason my eyes did not notice the "LA" on this one's title. I feel like an absolute dumb-butt.

[summertime25]

Originally Posted by stickybit

Well, I have a degree in philosophy (analytic philosophy at my alma mater), including a decent amount of training in logic.

Stickybit, will you marry me?