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What's somewhat amusing about this is that the hard working blue collar types and immigrants being lionised in the complaint largely got pushed out by the so-called "rebels" before they too got pushed out.
If a city is viewed as desirable (because of jobs, climate, geography, culture, whatever), then people will want to come. That will force prices up. How to decide who gets to stay and who has to go?
Otherwise, if a city is undesirable, it gets old, crumbles, and those who can leave.
One alternative I offer to the San Francisco model is Detroit, Michican. Or Newark, NJ. Which model do you prefer, really?
Your alternative of Detroit is a bit extreme. There is a middle ground, and I think that is what people are referring to.
And the city isn't expensive only due to demand/its desirability. There's land use factors involved in it also. This subject has been beat to death before, so I won't say anymore. But if you are interested, you can search for cost of living in San francisco, etc.
my family and I moved out of San Francisco 8 years ago, and we have recently moved back I have noticed somethings in the city that I think have changed at least somewhat. This thread is not meant to be racist or evoke anykind of negative feelings I am just bluntly trying to confirm my observations by asking others.
Do you think that there are to many white yuppies in San Francisco?
When I was a kid (when we moved) I guess I wasnt a racist jerk yet and I didnt notice things like that but going back to my old neighborhood many of the old Chinese families I knew have been replaced with white yuppies. I feel very sad but then again the neighborhood (North Beach) has been for a long time a yuppie haven, now I dont hate white yuppies but damn theres so many of them and they bring all these ****ty upscale buisnesses wherever they go (internet cafes,"Italian dining", stupid shops that sell usless trendy crap etc.) I dont know I guess its unhealthy to around with this chip on my shoulder but I cant help but feel like theyre just crapping all over my childhood memories. I like people with character who are TRUELY individualistic and not just self absorbed shallow consumers who pretend to care about world issues to look intellectual. I guess I dont just dislike yuppies but all this stupid "hip" scene in San Francisco. Every thinks there in Europe or some ****, this is really annoying, especially all those dumb tourists and suburban people who swarm over the Westfield (god i hate the mall) anyway not to rant and refocuse most of these people are white, cant the whites at least stop this stupid trendy, hip, European, intellectual BS, and just live here as a nice place a not treat it like some cool "scene" anyway I doubt anything I say or do will change anything, but I hope someone knows what Im talkin about. Sorry if I offended any white people this rant was not meant for you it was meant for people who act in the specific ways i mentioned. Getting back to my original question has SF changed for the worse? how much has it changed in the last decade? have i recently been aware of it? or has it always been this way? (since the late 80's)
A lot of people are loving these changes obviously, but they tend to be transplants looking for some stereotypical BS media driven lifestyle. I don't like the changes either. SF has become a yuppie filled boutique city for the most part. There are still normal, down to earth people there but they are being overshadowed by yuppies, pretentious limousine liberal types, and hipsters more and more. It kind of what comes along with the territory of being a wealthy, urban city. It's amazing how people still throw around the word "diversity" in SF when it lacks a lot of what it use to have; Sacramento is more diverse than SF racially. And with thoughts and values, there is less diversity in SF now.
It's still a nice city and lots to do and see, but it definitely has lost some it's soul and character that it used to have. But there's always the east bay if one needs to escape the pretentious, psuedo intellectual types for more down to earth, real people.
A lot of people are loving these changes obviously, but they tend to be transplants looking for some stereotypical BS media driven lifestyle. I don't like the changes either. SF has become a yuppie filled boutique city for the most part. There are still normal, down to earth people there but they are being overshadowed by yuppies, pretentious limousine liberal types, and hipsters more and more. It kind of what comes along with the territory of being a wealthy, urban city. It's amazing how people still throw around the word "diversity" in SF when it lacks a lot of what it use to have; Sacramento is more diverse than SF racially. And with thoughts and values, there is less diversity in SF now.
It's still a nice city and lots to do and see, but it definitely has lost some it's soul and character that it used to have. But there's always the east bay if one needs to escape the pretentious, psuedo intellectual types for more down to earth, real people.
Diversity is totally overrated. How is diversity working out in Oakland? Whoa, wait a sec, so the east bay is the place to escape pretentiousness and psuedo-intellectuals? I take it you've never been to Berkeley?
"It is possible to be rebellious, anti-establishment, diverse, without being a bum. The people just have more sophisticated job skills than before. They grew up in other words."
I see a community built on immigrants and hard working people being forced out because some young wealthy hipsters wanna use thier homes as a playpen for thier selfish shallow image. And personally I think a "bum" does have a better understanding on the reality of social issues than a wealthy person does and when I say understanding I dont mean straight of the books great education, I mean living in pain and suffering day after day.
As for the black community here I simply find it sad that a whole group of people are having to leave, how is that relevant you ask? because as we all know the black community as a whole are as we all hate to admit America's underclass. They make up a huge percentage of the poorest of Americans and the wealthy are scarred ****less of the poor. Personally I find it fishy that now since San Francisco has become a magnet for young wealthy professionals the poorest citizens suddenly are getting driven out of their neighborhoods. I dont know if anyone knows about the old housing projects in North Beach, but when I was a kid they were there, today they have been completly redone and the old residents are no where to be found. Why? beacause the tourists were feeling a little uncomfortable having so many poor people hangin out near the cable car line. As a result the buinesses were suffering a bit so suddenly poof no more projects no more poor people.
The point Im tryin to make with that little story is this... instead of having compassion for poor struggling people and trying to TRUELY help them (not just throwing money at them and tellin them to **** off) we get rid of them, now Im not sayin all u guys need to go around being nice to all the poor people and givin them money or whatever, just leave them the **** alone, its bad enough that they live in a project in the first place, now u make them get out and move to another project mabye even a worse one! Why? beacuse the buildings are ugly to look at? the people scare you? theyre bad for buisness? So dont give me this **** about "well if they cant afford it they should leave its reality" because I know that already, reality is ****ed up me ranting on this dumb ass website isnt gonna change anything at all, Im merley pointing out in this whole thread that reality sucks and I wish with all my heart that people could stop ****ing with other peoples buisness.
So people who have worked hard, have high paying jobs are somehow excluded from your diverse, down-to-earth utopia and are the ones ruining your vision for SF? The job market demands these professionals, and they're far from being all white. And guess what? These people need places to live, their "playpen for their own selfish image." Yikes, I didn't know having a home was such an offense, man, I learn new things everyday.
Sorry, not everyone can have a bay-front home. Its not like poor people can't live downtown or in the Tenderloin. I had a downtown apartment at 6th and Market for only $675 a month. So please knock off the hyperbole.
A bum has a better understanding of social issues? Um, yeah whatever. I'm not even going to touch that one. You make it sound as if everyone else has never experienced adversity in their lives.
gizmo since the words are dotted out I dont see whats the harm in a little self expression. Unless people r so offended by profanity that they dont even want a hint of it. Which I cannot understand since I assumed most of the people on this website were adults. But whatever
Aside from that I would like to say in response to Zhugheliangs claim that diversity is overrated is that diversity is a beautiful thing. The only reason that diverisity can have such negative effects on a community is when you have what we may be experiencing at bit of right now, differing ideas and desires. All people have those so lets not point out Oakland's high crime rate and say that its the fault of diversity. Its the fault of many people living in POVERTY and desperation, which I would like to add exist in many non racially diverse communites throughout the world. Detroit for example is a city with a serious lack of diversity and its probably the murder capital of America. Nothing is wrong with a diverse place only those diverse places which SEGREGATE the citizens who are different into permanent ethnic enclaves, creating a situation with all the races in the world in one city but all of them still living as foreigners to one another making xenophobia literally around every corner.
Speaking of Detroit I've read alot of big talk that a few of u think you would want to live in Detroit rather than San Francisco. Ok now Ive never been to Detroit but I think theres a reason I have'nt. No offense to the city or the people there but I think alot of you would soil yourselves if u visited Detroit let alone move there. If u wanna make ridiculous BS claims like that then at least get more creative, you know like oh SF has got nothing on the weather in Baghdad, or I'd rather live in Pyongyang because there's no whiny liberals there, or at least I can take my kids out shooting in Grozny, or man Tehran is great because you''ll never see men holding hands there, Ahmadinejad even guarantees that it never happens!!!
Juanito, I don't mean to make light of a serious issue (i.e., the loss of working, middle class and blue collar people in San Francisco), or belittle your obviously sincere and heart-felt view.
But I do find what you are posting to some degree quaintly amusing in a neo-neo conservative kind of way (you, not me). Listening to someone who likely associates himself with a liberal (and I don't mean that as an insult, either) world view expressing nostalgia and pining for 'the good old days' is very similar to what guys like William F Buckley spent their careers doing. Imagining an elysian past that likely didn't really exist, all the while complaining about change. I think in your own way, you've turned the world on its head.
Equally funny is that you say that the "negative effect" to diversity is differing opinions and ideas. Call me crazy, but the whole idea of living in a diverse community is that it will have an interesting mixture of ideas, values, cultures. If you try to say that diversity is basically just the ethnic phenotypes, then honestly, what *is* the benefit? For example, if San Francisco were populated in equal parts by black, Latino, Asian, and Caucasian people, but who all thought and acted the same way, whose political or cultural ideas were never in contrast, then how is that different (other than the way people look on the outside) from the whitest city in central New Hampshire?
gizmo since the words are dotted out I dont see whats the harm in a little self expression. Unless people r so offended by profanity that they dont even want a hint of it. Which I cannot understand since I assumed most of the people on this website were adults. But whatever
Hey, they're not my rules, I just enforce them... trust me, I swear like a sailor when I'm not here or at work. But we do allow people under 18 to post on City-Data, which is why they implemented a "PG-13" general rule. Yes, the words are blanked out, but we prefer not to see ***** in every sentence. Okay?
As for the discussion, I have to agree with some of what Baron & Zhuge have said... diversity is a wonderful thing, but that includes ALL people, even the upper-class White community. To stereotype/villify them is no better than badmouthing minorities or the less fortunate, since we're all humans in the end. You can't blame people for being successful, and gentrification is a natural progression in big cities. There are still less expensive parts of SF, like where I live (Bayview/Portola), and plenty of nice outlying areas that are cheaper. But the fact is, it costs money to live in the BEST neighborhoods - otherwise they wouldn't be so great, would they?
Anyway, for somebody who speaks of diversity and social awareness, you should practice what you preach... even with the "evil yuppies," LOL. I see what your points are & agree with many of them, but as somebody who was raised by (and around) yuppies, I can also sympathize with the other side. And as Baron said, you can't assume people don't have life experience or awareness, simply because they make a good living today. You might pigeon-hole me based on my current occupation, and would be VERY surprised to find out the true details of my past... doubtful that I'm unique in that respect.
okay guys, the past few posts I am finding are getting hard to counter, but I never said that wealthy whites cant live in San Francisco, just as long as they can have a little consideration for those who were here long before them.
In response to Baron, I dont play the liberal vs. conservative game anymore, all ideologies have thier valid points so I asscociate with neither. And in some ways we must apreciate the past and be a little more reluctant to jump into an uncertain future. The only problem I have with a dominant young wealthy white population in San Francisco is all the self centered, fake "hipness" many of them bring. With no intention of staying and no intention of really establishing anything here they come and go and in the mean time make those who have long established roots here leave.
In response to Zhugeliang, ok what do you want? let all the wealthy upperclass do whatever they want? this argument I realize is not one sided and I respect your points to a certain degree, so respect mine. And yes people who have faced alot of hardships in my crazy whacked opinion probably have an understanding of poverty and social issues greater than most upperclass yuppies, that includes "bums" who are at the lowest level of the American social structure just look at the nickname theve been given. So please take another shot at me by re explaining why we should allow the upperclass to push everyone around somemore, poor people and the middle class need homes to, also you said that poor people can still live in the Tenderloin yes for the time being they can, but if this influx of the upperclass continues they wont. And everyone please stop assuming that Im a moron and think a world without yuppies would be a Utopia.
Now in response to Gizmo, I personally dont think that badmouthing yuppies is as bad as bad mouthing poor people or minorities, because when I say yuppie I refer more to a pretentious, hipster, "socially aware", ultra liberal, attitude and style, rather than skin color or culture. And please no one give me the BS that yuppie is a legit culture and attacking thier culture would be like attacking someone for being Jewish or what not, because yuppie isnt something your born into, its a very loose term I use to describe wealthier young types, its a style if anything.
So ok change is inevitable, but why doesnt change ever seem to benefit the poor, it never seems to work in thier favor. The wealthy always come out on top and I find it quite upsetting. So yes continue to barrage me with all of your valid and increasingly hard points to counter and u guys might even eventually stump me and shoot down me down, I might even end up looking like an idiot and u guys will feel even more intelligent.
But one day soon San Francisco as it was will be practically gone, and most of you will be thinking man it sure does suck here. What with all the internet cafes, high rises, condos, doggie walking parks, malls etc. Many would rather move to a nice "real" city thus gentrifying another city, and soon every place in America will look like the suburbs. Mabye Im being a bit over dramatic and extreme but thats the direction we're moving in. Just because I dont like the direction doesnt mean Im some idiot whose stuck in the past and cant accept change.
okay guys, the past few posts I am finding are getting hard to counter, but I never said that wealthy whites cant live in San Francisco, just as long as they can have a little consideration for those who were here long before them.
In response to Baron, I dont play the liberal vs. conservative game anymore, all ideologies have thier valid points so I asscociate with neither. And in some ways we must apreciate the past and be a little more reluctant to jump into an uncertain future. The only problem I have with a dominant young wealthy white population in San Francisco is all the self centered, fake "hipness" many of them bring. With no intention of staying and no intention of really establishing anything here they come and go and in the mean time make those who have long established roots here leave.
In response to Zhugeliang, ok what do you want? let all the wealthy upperclass do whatever they want? this argument I realize is not one sided and I respect your points to a certain degree, so respect mine. And yes people who have faced alot of hardships in my crazy whacked opinion probably have an understanding of poverty and social issues greater than most upperclass yuppies, that includes "bums" who are at the lowest level of the American social structure just look at the nickname theve been given. So please take another shot at me by re explaining why we should allow the upperclass to push everyone around somemore, poor people and the middle class need homes to, also you said that poor people can still live in the Tenderloin yes for the time being they can, but if this influx of the upperclass continues they wont. And everyone please stop assuming that Im a moron and think a world without yuppies would be a Utopia.
Now in response to Gizmo, I personally dont think that badmouthing yuppies is as bad as bad mouthing poor people or minorities, because when I say yuppie I refer more to a pretentious, hipster, "socially aware", ultra liberal, attitude and style, rather than skin color or culture. And please no one give me the BS that yuppie is a legit culture and attacking thier culture would be like attacking someone for being Jewish or what not, because yuppie isnt something your born into, its a very loose term I use to describe wealthier young types, its a style if anything.
So ok change is inevitable, but why doesnt change ever seem to benefit the poor, it never seems to work in thier favor. The wealthy always come out on top and I find it quite upsetting. So yes continue to barrage me with all of your valid and increasingly hard points to counter and u guys might even eventually stump me and shoot down me down, I might even end up looking like an idiot and u guys will feel even more intelligent.
But one day soon San Francisco as it was will be practically gone, and most of you will be thinking man it sure does suck here. What with all the internet cafes, high rises, condos, doggie walking parks, malls etc. Many would rather move to a nice "real" city thus gentrifying another city, and soon every place in America will look like the suburbs. Mabye Im being a bit over dramatic and extreme but thats the direction we're moving in. Just because I dont like the direction doesnt mean Im some idiot whose stuck in the past and cant accept change.
Juanito, thanks for a measured response.
In my post to you, I was not trying to introduce a "liberal-conservative" dichotomy. I was just observing that it is quaintly amusing to hear the argument from someone who so obviously likes the countercultural "norm" that SF represented from the 1960s posting comments with more than a whiff of nostalgia for the past, hoping to freeze the world exactly as it was (or more precisely, how he imagined it was) 40 years ago.
Change is almost necessarily a destructive process. Your halcyon "San Francisco as it was" destroyed what the city had been before. Before it was a mecca for the "socially aware" you speak of, it was a seaport and finance centre. Sailors (not at all "socially aware"), military types, and bankers as well as blue collar types populated San Francisco. Do you know that for many years, for example, the Mayor of the city was actually a Republican? What are the chances of that *ever* happening again?
And I hate to say it, but when there is a clash of the haves and have nots, the have nots will almost always lose. The problem is as basic as this: San Francisco takes up a precariously small piece of real estate. There is a functional limit to how many people can live in its, what, 40 or 500 square kilometres. If people find those hectares desirable, more will want to move in than out, and the result is that the only real arbitrator of who will get to come will be those who can afford it. What alternative do you offer, really?
You don't have to like it, but asking the world not to change is rather like King Canute ordering the tide not to come in.
This is a very interesting discussion. While I can see the angle of both sides of the argument, everyone must remember that this is not just an issue in SF. I have experiences in LA and SD as well, and the same things are happening there. I've also traveled to multiple continents and seen the same issues there. Paris is a good example that comes to mind. The native French that are able to find/keep jobs live in the city, while the immigrants and the poor are forced to the outskirts of the city where they live in very dense conditions surrouned by near squalor (and you thought racism was bad here in America, they take it to a whole new level in France). Every big city I've been to is pretty much the same, except maybe in China, but that's a whole different story.
I think the bottom line is that there is no perfect place. I've never been to any city in the world where all the people magically get along and the living conditions for all income levels are fair and respected. The closest that I've ever seen to this was in Beijing, China, but it is so congested and polluted there that I'd rather take the social ills of America every day of the week than live with their filthy air.
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But we do allow people under 18 to post on City-Data, which is why they implemented a "PG-13" general rule. Yes, the words are blanked out, but we prefer not to see ***** in every sentence. Okay? 
I see what your points are & agree with many of them, but as somebody who was raised by (and around) yuppies, I can also sympathize with the other side. And as Baron said, you can't assume people don't have life experience or awareness, simply because they make a good living today. You might pigeon-hole me based on my current occupation, and would be VERY surprised to find out the true details of my past... doubtful that I'm unique in that respect.
